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Micky van de Ven

DeanoAustin said:
You've quite a bit of experience at a good level mate. Do pros actually down tools? To me, it looks like our lot are completely demoralised and have absolutely no confidence in themselves, their team mates, the coach, the fans and the club and that's what we're seeing.

I see lads who'd kill you to win a 5 a side game every week. I find it hard to believe that pros would just stop trying.
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I think it is a little bit more nuanced than that. When you do something at elite level the margins between winning and losing are often very small. It is very rare for players to completely stop trying, However, it can happen that players don't absolutely bust a gut and do everything in their power to give everything they have. If a player stops believing in his teammates or the tactics then this can happen without a player intentionally taking it easy, it just kind of happens. I suspect one of the reasons why there is often a new manager bounce is because suddenly players give their all to try to impress the new manager (just kind of human nature really). Unfortunately in our scenario we had so few players available that there wasn't really a need for any of them to try to impress the manager as they'd be playing anyway just by virtue of being available.

For what it's worth (not a lot I hear a bunch of you say) I don't think we showed a lack of effort last night, I also didn't think the performance overall was particularly bad (we've been far worse in many games this season). We gave them three awful goals where they didn't need to create anything and then they got a 4th from a free kick that should've been a yellow card for diving for their player. I actually thought we showed a bit of resilience and fight to not roll over and some of our play was OK despite us having so little creativity in the middle of the pitch.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I think it is a little bit more nuanced than that. When you do something at elite level the margins between winning and losing are often very small. It is very rare for players to completely stop trying, However, it can happen that players don't absolutely bust a gut and do everything in their power to give everything they have. If a player stops believing in his teammates or the tactics then this can happen without a player intentionally taking it easy, it just kind of happens. I suspect one of the reasons why there is often a new manager bounce is because suddenly players give their all to try to impress the new manager (just kind of human nature really). Unfortunately in our scenario we had so few players available that there wasn't really a need for any of them to try to impress the manager as they'd be playing anyway just by virtue of being available.

For what it's worth (not a lot I hear a bunch of you say) I don't think we showed a lack of effort last night, I also didn't think the performance overall was particularly bad (we've been far worse in many games this season). We gave them three awful goals where they didn't need to create anything and then they got a 4th from a free kick that should've been a yellow card for diving for their player. I actually thought we showed a bit of resilience and fight to not roll over and some of our play was OK despite us having so little creativity in the middle of the pitch.
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And that I can sort of get behind as a theory. I'm just seeing a lot of "these lads aren't trying", "they don't care", "they'll be off next year", "they have their millions so they don't care about our suffering". I don't buy it. These are competitive footballers so I don't believe they go out on that pitch and don't give it pretty much all that they can. However, I think your theory above could be right. Even a slight drop at this level, caused unwillingly by other factors, can have a fatal impact on the chances of success. I think it's far more likely that we're seeing that than lads saying "couldn't give a f**k today, I'm taking it easy".
 
I find the most tiresome narrative being perpetuated inside and outside the fanbase at the moment is that Micky 'has clearly had his head turned and downed tools'.

I'm not disputing this is a possibility but what I see is a still relatively young player who's being asked to play in a system that clearly doesn't suit his best abilities seeing the brickstorm all around him and has become totally demoralised and suffering from a chronic lack of confidence.

There's an assumption that because he's a 6 ft 5 central defender who's very articulate that he therefore must be captaincy material and that because he doesn't shake his fist like Graham Roberts means that he's letting his teammates, club and fans down.
 
90sSpursBook said:
I find the most tiresome narrative being perpetuated inside and outside the fanbase at the moment is that Micky 'has clearly had his head turned and downed tools'.

I'm not disputing this is a possibility but what I see is a still relatively young player who's being asked to play in a system that clearly doesn't suit his best abilities seeing the brickstorm all around him and has become totally demoralised and suffering from a chronic lack of confidence.

There's an assumption that because he's a 6 ft 5 central defender who's very articulate that he therefore must be captaincy material and that because he doesn't shake his fist like Graham Roberts means that he's letting his teammates, club and fans down.
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The club is at war with itself and he’s an easy spacegoat.

To me, he seems like a lad who needs sitting down and asked to talk about what’s going on with him. What we’re seeing from him seems to be a lad about to combust. I don’t think it’s lack of care, I just think he looks like he’s in a position he’s struggling to deal with.

We won’t get out of this by finger pointing and kicking lads when they’re down. Micky needs some help IMO.
 
DeanoAustin said:
The club is at war with itself and he’s an easy spacegoat.

To me, he seems like a lad who needs sitting down and asked to talk about what’s going on with him. What we’re seeing from him seems to be a lad about to combust. I don’t think it’s lack of care, I just think he looks like he’s in a position he’s struggling to deal with.

We won’t get out of this by finger pointing and kicking lads when they’re down. Micky needs some help IMO.
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90sSpursBook said:
I find the most tiresome narrative being perpetuated inside and outside the fanbase at the moment is that Micky 'has clearly had his head turned and downed tools'.

I'm not disputing this is a possibility but what I see is a still relatively young player who's being asked to play in a system that clearly doesn't suit his best abilities seeing the brickstorm all around him and has become totally demoralised and suffering from a chronic lack of confidence.

There's an assumption that because he's a 6 ft 5 central defender who's very articulate that he therefore must be captaincy material and that because he doesn't shake his fist like Graham Roberts means that he's letting his teammates, club and fans down.
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People put too much weight into the emotions and make a ton of assumptions based on body language on people they don't personally know. Thats how you get these assessments about players supposedly not caring, even though clearly from the performances even under Frank we put in tons of effort, we are just lacking quality and application.

VDV is in poor form and has some questionable qualities but I don't think saying he doesnt care is accurate. Questioning whether he is good enough is a better lane to follow.
 
Bishop said:
People put too much weight into the emotions and make a ton of assumptions based on body language on people they don't personally know. Thats how you get these assessments about players supposedly not caring, even though clearly from the performances even under Frank we put in tons of effort, we are just lacking quality and application.

VDV is in poor form and has some questionable qualities but I don't think saying he doesnt care is accurate. Questioning whether he is good enough is a better lane to follow.
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I think there are some warning signs there based on his behaviour. VdV has never been a dirty player. He was sent off v Palace as captain and in the very next game he should have gone for a reckless, potential leg breaking challenge. His comments after the game. Him playing well below his level.

I could be wrong but he looks like a lad who is struggling to deal with what’s going on.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I think there are some warning signs there based on his behaviour. VdV has never been a dirty player. He was sent off v Palace as captain and in the very next game he should have gone for a reckless, potential leg breaking challenge. His comments after the game. Him playing well below his level.

I could be wrong but he looks like a lad who is struggling to deal with what’s going on.
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To quote Reeves from The Replacements - quicksand.. Very apt for us currently.
 
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