So, what happened today?

glasgowspur said:

So only in high profile cases?
And I'm not limiting this to the trans debate, there are a lot of emotive issues around just now that are bsecoming more toxic as the weeks go on, whether it's the political divide, migrants, the Gazza and Israel situation or any number of other sensitive issues.
It's easy to rubbish the threats but look at the violence after the misinformation spread about that dance class attack, wouldn't you think that the situation that could easily get out of control?
Granted as far as I can remember there was no direct threat beforehand but it's not that long ago that the mp (cook?) was murdered in the street by someone who was upset (doesn't feel like a strong enough word for his heinous act) about some of these emotive issues.

I certainly was not deliberately misunderstanding you, for you this felt I quite a flippant attitude, not something I would expect from you.
Maybe I have misunderstood, but if I have it's not deliberate.

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I think only solution is more accountability on social media companies (taking away the possibility of anonymity) and a more pro active attitude from the police. Neither are particularly likely.

I guess the underlying point is, with JK Rowling, I doubt she's truly in fear for her life, going public about that kind of thing is more about point scoring than anything. It's not possible to have the debate without it being implied that the trans community are some rabid bunch of murderous gangsters because of an apparent "death threat".

There's always been emotive issues but it's easier to shake the cage of everyone to get us all arguing with each other with technological "advancements". And it takes less effort than ever with AI writing clickbait articles or bots interfering with elections etc. It's a bit like police / government weakening the stance of a protest by infiltrating it and inciting violent acts, the lines become intentionally blurred and nobody knows who is on whose side and what's going on. Welcome to the post truth age. Safer to stay inside and be a sponge for adverts so you know which corporations to kindly give your well earned money to. Cynical? Me? Never!

Jurgen the German said:

It’s ok I agree with Roy Keane a lot too

I think you have to take death threats seriously even if they’re unlikely to happen. Saying things and doing them are two different things of course it’s still despicable behaviour.

I’d say I’m more team Bill Maher than John Oliver. I don’t agree with his views on Israel or drugs, but he does at least speak to people on both sides and I fully agree that you have to engage with the other side rather than hating each other. He recently went to the White House to meet Trump despite there being no love lost between them.

Re John Oliver, Im baffled as to someone who I assume is very pro science get it so wrong about trans athletes. Surely anyone can see they retain physical advantages just by being bigger and stronger.

John Oliver draws JK Rowling’s fury over mockery of trans athletes debate

The ‘Last Week Tonight’ host argued there is no evidence trans athletes ‘pose any threat to safety or fairness’

www.independent.co.uk

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Ugh "Fashionable anti women's rights positions", JK Rowling is a tool indeed. Most of the cast of Harry Potter and her loved ones might want her to stop embarrassing herself, but at least Dave from Hull thinks she's telling it like it is which is brave because you can't say anything these days as woke has ruined everything.

Any death threat should be taken seriously, but it's how you define it. If some tweets "burn in hell" to some politician responsible for genocide, is that a death threat? And there's different categories, someone seeking attention / hoping to intimidate / actually of a mindset of causing physical violence/ someone venting. As I said to Glasgow, it's on the social media companies who couldn't give a fudge and actually profit from making everyone froth at the mouth anyways...

Yeah we'll never agree on Maher, smarmy condescending old bloke with his finger miles off the pulse, but that's a subjective take of course!

spurspinter1 said:

Ugh "Fashionable anti women's rights positions", JK Rowling is a tool indeed. Most of the cast of Harry Potter and her loved ones might want her to stop embarrassing herself, but at least Dave from Hull thinks she's telling it like it is which is brave because you can't say anything these days as woke has ruined everything.

Any death threat should be taken seriously, but it's how you define it. If some tweets "burn in hell" to some politician responsible for genocide, is that a death threat? And there's different categories, someone seeking attention / hoping to intimidate / actually of a mindset of causing physical violence/ someone venting. As I said to Glasgow, it's on the social media companies who couldn't give a fudge and actually profit from making everyone froth at the mouth anyways...

Yeah we'll never agree on Maher, smarmy condescending old bloke with his finger miles off the pulse, but that's a subjective take of course!

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Her views are more grounded in facts and reality than Oliver’s though. As much as you would like people to be more mindful of other people’s feelings and be more politically correct, surely what’s true is ultimately is the most important thing in these kind of debates?

Jurgen the German said:

Her views are more grounded in facts and reality than Oliver’s though. As much as you would like people to be more mindful of other people’s feelings and be more politically correct, surely what’s true is ultimately is the most important thing in these kind of debates?

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Okay, the truth is entirely drawn from what the sex column on a birth certificate says, nothing else should be taken into consideration as how we view things in a binary form on bureaucratic forms is the ultimate gospel.

Other cultures that have historically recognised there being an in-between element of the two sexes are bathed in falsehoods because JK Rowling knows better. She should go and tell them!

I haven't seen any facts JK Rowling has posted tbh. I'm going to guess they're slanted over simplifications which lack any compassion or acknowledgement that if intersex people exist, it's quite likely that anomalies happen outside of just a physical manifestation...But fudge it, why try to understand or emphasise, just be a snidey Ben shapiro wannabe on the internet spouting that "facts don't care about your feelings" flimflam like you've said anything of note.

Jurgen the German said:

Her views are more grounded in facts and reality than Oliver’s though. As much as you would like people to be more mindful of other people’s feelings and be more politically correct, surely what’s true is ultimately is the most important thing in these kind of debates?

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they are not

Rowlings view is that trans women are repeatedly assaulting CIS women in public toilets up and down the country

Baleforce said:

they are not

Rowlings view is that trans women are repeatedly assaulting CIS women in public toilets up and down the country

Click to expand...

I was referring more to her views on what sexes are and what defines a woman. As opposed to saying things like trans athletes have no advantage over female athletes like John Oliver keeps repeating. Surely he doesn’t actually believe that. Or he’s in denial.

spurspinter1 said:

Okay, the truth is entirely drawn from what the sex column on a birth certificate says, nothing else should be taken into consideration as how we view things in a binary form on bureaucratic forms is the ultimate gospel.

Other cultures that have historically recognised there being an in-between element of the two sexes are bathed in falsehoods because JK Rowling knows better. She should go and tell them!

I haven't seen any facts JK Rowling has posted tbh. I'm going to guess they're slanted over simplifications which lack any compassion or acknowledgement that if intersex people exist, it's quite likely that anomalies happen outside of just a physical manifestation...But fudge it, why try to understand or emphasise, just be a snidey Ben shapiro wannabe on the internet spouting that "facts don't care about your feelings" flimflam like you've said anything of note.

Click to expand...

Without stating the obvious, she’s more qualified to define what a woman is than any of us. And you are taking everything as an absolute statement. I said her views are more based in facts than John Oliver’s.

Jurgen the German said:

Without stating the obvious, she’s more qualified to define what a woman is than any of us. And you are taking everything as an absolute statement. I said her views are more based in facts than John Oliver’s.

Click to expand...

You might potentially think that women are a monolith and one speaks for all, but I don't buy into such generalisations myself. I can't speak on the experience of being a woman but imagine it's often made much harder by men, not all but many. I know many cis gendered ladies who think she's a miserable clam and I think I'm entitled to agree with them!

There wasn't a lot of her actual views that were factual, quoted in the independent article you linked previously.

I'm an open minded person and enjoy being challenged but if you aren't going to provide any actual food for thought, it's best to leave it....Especially if you aren't going to show any evidence that you've been able to compute any of the ideas I've introduced, the mask slipped in the last post and it's not particularly interesting nor surprising. I think there's a dedicated thread for this debate anyways (it's potentially taking over this thread and the politics one!).

Woman in Brazil sentenced to 14 years in prison in Brazil for joining a protest against the last presidential election result and writing "you lost, idiot" with lipstick on a statue:

spurspinter1 said:

I think only solution is more accountability on social media companies (taking away the possibility of anonymity) and a more pro active attitude from the police. Neither are particularly likely.

I guess the underlying point is, with JK Rowling, I doubt she's truly in fear for her life, going public about that kind of thing is more about point scoring than anything. It's not possible to have the debate without it being implied that the trans community are some rabid bunch of murderous gangsters because of an apparent "death threat".

There's always been emotive issues but it's easier to shake the cage of everyone to get us all arguing with each other with technological "advancements". And it takes less effort than ever with AI writing clickbait articles or bots interfering with elections etc. It's a bit like police / government weakening the stance of a protest by infiltrating it and inciting violent acts, the lines become intentionally blurred and nobody knows who is on whose side and what's going on. Welcome to the post truth age. Safer to stay inside and be a sponge for adverts so you know which corporations to kindly give your well earned money to. Cynical? Me? Never!

Click to expand...

Jeezo, you go away for a days golf and come back to find it's all kicked off.


SM is a stain on society. A tool that could be used to do so much good and bring so many together and from all I see all it does is drive wedges deeper and further between communities.
Yes SM companies need to take some responsibility, but so do we the general populace.
It's not the company's posting hate and bile, it's us.
I don't do SM, this is my only online presence.
Anyone that starts a conversation, discussion or debate with "I seen on Facebook, YouTube, x" etc and I switch off, my opinion of that person also takes a serious hit.

Rowling for me is a tough one.
I never have and never will read any of her books, they are not for me, I have seen the films as the wife is a fan. She indulges me in watching Star Wars, LOTR, alien and the like, so only fair I sit through HP with bleeding eyes for the wife.
So why is it tough?
Well at the risk jumping on my hobby horse during the indy fiasco she was the only "celebrity" that didn't support indy.
As the only one who actually still stayed in Scotland, still paid her taxes in Scotland and still supported a lot, and I mean a lot, of local charities and causes and didn't fudge off a la connery (the wife beater), Cox (millionaire firebrand socialist) or Cummings and so many more who had fled Scotland at the first opportunity but were quite happy to tell the plebs what was best for them and how it was it was traitorous to not vote yes.
This of course didn't go down to well with the Snp and had consequences later on.

Which brings me to the trans debate.
My apologies if I'm wrong but I wonder just how many people outwith Scotland know how we got to where we currently are.

The Scottish government, supported by Scottish Labour, lib dems and greens, passed a suite of laws including the hate crime Bill and self ID for trans.
Despite being repeatedly told medical and legal professionals of the highest calibre that these laws were unworkable they pressed on.
Public consultation on these laws were 85% against.
Still they pressed on.
It all looked as if the government would have it's way until Isla Blair came along.
A man being tried on two *struggle cuddle* charges "comes out" as trans.
Under the hate crime Bill and self ID at the trial the victims of these rapes would have to have addressed their rapist as she or face prosecution.
He was convicted and sent to a female prison and it all began to unravel.
When pressed nicola sturgeon could not bring herself to concede that this double rapist was a man, that it was wrong to send him to a female prison and that her laws were ill thought out, dangerous and just downright stupid.
Nicola cannot be wrong.

The UK government intervened and struck the laws down.
Rather than take stock and try and amend the laws the SNP went on the offensive blaming everyone except themselves and challenged the cases to highest courts.
They lost, repeatedly.
Admit you made mistakes, rewrite the law and this all goes away, but instead they ran at a wall they knew they could never break.


Rowling enters.
*struggle cuddle* crisis Scotland, funded by the Scottish government, run by a trans woman.
Complaints piled to ceiling.
*struggle cuddle* victims who are receiving counselling ing were bullied into having male counsellors and if they requested a female their request was denied.
They were eventually taken to court with an eviscerating judgement against the centre, it's head and management.
Unsurprisingly for anyone who follows the Scottish government no one has lost their job, been suspended or even been given a warning.



Rowling set up and fully funded a *struggle cuddle* crisis centre. Which is still running.

That's the good.

Where I take issue with her, and if I'm being honest it is where I take issue with most, is that rather than rising above it and sticking to her principle she has entered the seething pit bile.
Who flung the first handful of brick, I don't know.

What I do know is that we can no longer see the real issue because of all the brick flying around.

Here for what it's worth is my take on it all.

There are undoubtedly genuine trans people.
They are a vulnerable group and deserve certain rights and protections.
It's the laws job to legislate for that.
Those laws need to be as watertight as possible.
I have seen figures quoted that 0.04% of the population are trans.
I would better very good money that a higher % of the male population is predatory towards women.
Any law protecting the 0.04% cannot undermine the safety of women.
The law the SNP wanted to pass did that.
Their point blank refusal to accept that is the issue.

We have went from a zero tolerance to abuse of women to it being all but open season on them as long as you say you're a woman.
Go online it's not difficult to find men, and they are men, claiming to be women that I would not want sharing a changing room, dressing room or hospital ward with.

The sad and sick thing about all of this is that the genuine trans people will be the ones to suffer.

For once I'm not going to apologise for the length of my post .

Jurgen the German said:

I was referring more to her views on what sexes are and what defines a woman. As opposed to saying things like trans athletes have no advantage over female athletes like John Oliver keeps repeating. Surely he doesn’t actually believe that. Or he’s in denial.

Click to expand...

If that's what you took from his most recent segment on it, I think you need to watch it again.

tommysvr said:

If that's what you took from his most recent segment on it, I think you need to watch it again.

Click to expand...

The latest editorial I saw was the usual saying trans athletes don’t have any advantages. Didn’t he devote an entire episode to the subject recently?

Jurgen the German said:

The latest editorial I saw was the usual saying trans athletes don’t have any advantages. Didn’t he devote an entire episode to the subject recently?

Click to expand...

This is the one I'm referring to:

glasgowspur said:

Jeezo, you go away for a days golf and come back to find it's all kicked off.


SM is a stain on society. A tool that could be used to do so much good and bring so many together and from all I see all it does is drive wedges deeper and further between communities.
Yes SM companies need to take some responsibility, but so do we the general populace.
It's not the company's posting hate and bile, it's us.
I don't do SM, this is my only online presence.
Anyone that starts a conversation, discussion or debate with "I seen on Facebook, YouTube, x" etc and I switch off, my opinion of that person also takes a serious hit.

Rowling for me is a tough one.
I never have and never will read any of her books, they are not for me, I have seen the films as the wife is a fan. She indulges me in watching Star Wars, LOTR, alien and the like, so only fair I sit through HP with bleeding eyes for the wife.
So why is it tough?
Well at the risk jumping on my hobby horse during the indy fiasco she was the only "celebrity" that didn't support indy.
As the only one who actually still stayed in Scotland, still paid her taxes in Scotland and still supported a lot, and I mean a lot, of local charities and causes and didn't fudge off a la connery (the wife beater), Cox (millionaire firebrand socialist) or Cummings and so many more who had fled Scotland at the first opportunity but were quite happy to tell the plebs what was best for them and how it was it was traitorous to not vote yes.
This of course didn't go down to well with the Snp and had consequences later on.

Which brings me to the trans debate.
My apologies if I'm wrong but I wonder just how many people outwith Scotland know how we got to where we currently are.

The Scottish government, supported by Scottish Labour, lib dems and greens, passed a suite of laws including the hate crime Bill and self ID for trans.
Despite being repeatedly told medical and legal professionals of the highest calibre that these laws were unworkable they pressed on.
Public consultation on these laws were 85% against.
Still they pressed on.
It all looked as if the government would have it's way until Isla Blair came along.
A man being tried on two *struggle cuddle* charges "comes out" as trans.
Under the hate crime Bill and self ID at the trial the victims of these rapes would have to have addressed their rapist as she or face prosecution.
He was convicted and sent to a female prison and it all began to unravel.
When pressed nicola sturgeon could not bring herself to concede that this double rapist was a man, that it was wrong to send him to a female prison and that her laws were ill thought out, dangerous and just downright stupid.
Nicola cannot be wrong.

The UK government intervened and struck the laws down.
Rather than take stock and try and amend the laws the SNP went on the offensive blaming everyone except themselves and challenged the cases to highest courts.
They lost, repeatedly.
Admit you made mistakes, rewrite the law and this all goes away, but instead they ran at a wall they knew they could never break.


Rowling enters.
*struggle cuddle* crisis Scotland, funded by the Scottish government, run by a trans woman.
Complaints piled to ceiling.
*struggle cuddle* victims who are receiving counselling ing were bullied into having male counsellors and if they requested a female their request was denied.
They were eventually taken to court with an eviscerating judgement against the centre, it's head and management.
Unsurprisingly for anyone who follows the Scottish government no one has lost their job, been suspended or even been given a warning.



Rowling set up and fully funded a *struggle cuddle* crisis centre. Which is still running.

That's the good.

Where I take issue with her, and if I'm being honest it is where I take issue with most, is that rather than rising above it and sticking to her principle she has entered the seething pit bile.
Who flung the first handful of brick, I don't know.

What I do know is that we can no longer see the real issue because of all the brick flying around.

Here for what it's worth is my take on it all.

There are undoubtedly genuine trans people.
They are a vulnerable group and deserve certain rights and protections.
It's the laws job to legislate for that.
Those laws need to be as watertight as possible.
I have seen figures quoted that 0.04% of the population are trans.
I would better very good money that a higher % of the male population is predatory towards women.
Any law protecting the 0.04% cannot undermine the safety of women.
The law the SNP wanted to pass did that.
Their point blank refusal to accept that is the issue.

We have went from a zero tolerance to abuse of women to it being all but open season on them as long as you say you're a woman.
Go online it's not difficult to find men, and they are men, claiming to be women that I would not want sharing a changing room, dressing room or hospital ward with.

The sad and sick thing about all of this is that the genuine trans people will be the ones to suffer.

For once I'm not going to apologise for the length of my post .

Click to expand...

I hope it was a cracking few days golfing!

Fair point on it being the general population being the ones posting the bile / abuse, but the modus operandi of those companies is to get people worked up, and have been found to be using bots to do so. Then you've got the parameters of what's considered abuse. Where is the line drawn. And you can find relevant information on these platforms but it's always worth a pinch of salt.

Harry Potter is a great kids book, and the films were fine, nothing wrong with enjoying stuff aimed for kids but it is what it is.

I'm sorry I've got no idea what you're referring to with "indy", lost me there! Ah it might be Scottish independence, in which case I am absolutely not qualified to comment but completely understand if Scottish people want to follow a large portion of the world in claiming independence from the English..

It sounds like there's room within legislation to abuse the right to self identify, which is a problem. How do you tell if anyone genuinely feels any which way? Obviously someone deciding they're trans because they don't want to go to prison with a bunch of burly men isn't really the way forward.

I still don't see how there is an open season on abusing women and I vaguely recall us talking about this before. Having gender identity issues shouldn't equate to having diplomatic immunity when it comes to crime, that take sounds exactly like the propaganda that Rowling would spue tbh.

I didn't want to ignore your response as it took some time from the looks of it but I'm also still of the mind that this one should be a lighthearted "what's going on in your world" vibe not squabbling so I hope this doesn't seem like me trying to get the last word in, feel free to at me in the trans thread!

spurspinter1 said:

I hope it was a cracking few days golfing!

Fair point on it being the general population being the ones posting the bile / abuse, but the modus operandi of those companies is to get people worked up, and have been found to be using bots to do so. Then you've got the parameters of what's considered abuse. Where is the line drawn. And you can find relevant information on these platforms but it's always worth a pinch of salt.

Harry Potter is a great kids book, and the films were fine, nothing wrong with enjoying stuff aimed for kids but it is what it is.

I'm sorry I've got no idea what you're referring to with "indy", lost me there! Ah it might be Scottish independence, in which case I am absolutely not qualified to comment but completely understand if Scottish people want to follow a large portion of the world in claiming independence from the English..

It sounds like there's room within legislation to abuse the right to self identify, which is a problem. How do you tell if anyone genuinely feels any which way? Obviously someone deciding they're trans because they don't want to go to prison with a bunch of burly men isn't really the way forward.

I still don't see how there is an open season on abusing women and I vaguely recall us talking about this before. Having gender identity issues shouldn't equate to having diplomatic immunity when it comes to crime, that take sounds exactly like the propaganda that Rowling would spue tbh.

I didn't want to ignore your response as it took some time from the looks of it but I'm also still of the mind that this one should be a lighthearted "what's going on in your world" vibe not squabbling so I hope this doesn't seem like me trying to get the last word in, feel free to at me in the trans thread!

Click to expand...

Is there a trans thread, that's totally passed me by!

It's all good, nothing either us two say on here is going to change a thing in this mad world.
Anyway, is there anything more pointless in this world than an Internet argument?

Again purely in my honest opinion facts get left behind when arguments become heated and polarised.
Common myths,
Trans people will abuse women in shared spaces.
I do not for one second believe that.
I do believe that if given the chance certain men will take advantage of badly written legislation that will open up spaces to them that they would not normally be allowed in.
It also seems to have escaped people that these men will also be in a position to threaten genuine trans women

Scotland wants independence.
Well no it doesn't, there was a vote on it and no polling has ever shown a convincing argument that the majority of Scottish people want it.

And I think this is where you have a very strong point on the role of SM companies, these endless back and forth drive clicks which drive money.
They are quite happy to sit and the coin but not responsibility.



Crack was good but the least said about the golf the better .

I am in the second week of having lost my voice. Not great as cannot work or do any physical work outside.

I have a terrible cough and asthma attacks so it’s been pretty brutal at times waiting for my breath to come back - particularly in the morning. Not a good way to start the day.

Worst hayfever season ever.

johnola said:

I am in the second week of having lost my voice. Not great as cannot work or do any physical work outside.

I have a terrible cough and asthma attacks so it’s been pretty brutal at times waiting for my breath to come back - particularly in the morning. Not a good way to start the day.

Worst hayfever season ever.

Click to expand...

so last Friday evening i had the Kenalog injection for hay fever. Its the 4th year i've had it, it's a game changer, almost immediate impact for me.

I normally suffer really in badly April / May, don't feel any effects of hayfever (so far anyway)

Lakey said:

so last Friday evening i had the Kenalog injection for hay fever. Its the 4th year i've had it, it's a game changer, almost immediate impact for me.

I normally suffer really in badly April / May, don't feel any effects of hayfever (so far anyway)

Click to expand...

It's not licenced for use on Hay Fever in UK due to side effects

K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:

It's not licenced for use on Hay Fever in UK due to side effects

Click to expand...

Maybe not but it works for me, no side effects personally and helps keeps me outdoors instead of hiding away or piling myself with nasal sprays, eye drops and tablets.
I’ve suffered for over 40 years, it’s the only thing that’s worked for me, Like I said for me it’s a game changer

On the plus side I’ve now been signed off for a week.