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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 68 37.6%

  • Out

    Votes: 113 62.4%
  • Total voters
    181
thfcsteff said:
The postee clearly acknowledges Ange has fudged it, however it's a post that details there are other systemic issues in how we operate which need fixing if we want anyone to succeed here.
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The post would be good and get a "like" from me if Ange wasn't lumped in with the other managers. Ange is the outlier. For me, legitimately there are only 2 things which the board can be blamed for in respect of Ange - 1) appointing him in the first place given his experience; seems to me that Munn has to answer for that. 2) failing to recognize the wheels were falling off and sacking him earlier. Again likely to be on Munn IMHO. It's the polar opposite of the Nuno situation.
 
Removing/replacing ange will take away one issue, whether the club has truly learned from his tenure and the car crash that has been the last few managerial choices and the general running of the football side is yet to be seen.
 
Surfless said:
So in summary, sure Ange has effed a load of stuff up this season. But so did conte, and so did Nuno and so did mourinho and so did Poch and so did avb and so did Sherwood and so did 'arry and so did Juande Ramos. Who won a cup having played dreadful football, lost 14 games and finished on 46 points.

We can't just keep sacking people because we have a broken footballing philosophy. That like fixing the lounge window every six months when you glasses are cracked.
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Like a lot of people, I agree with the general idea but I don't think you can put every manager we had in the same basket. Conte lost it because he was worried we wouldn't make Top 4. As it stands, we're likely to finish 17th and the man in charge believes 'the football's great'. Quite frankly, I've had more enjoyment watching Mourinho's team.

I think you are absolutely correct when you say we are risk adverse and that this will prevent anyone from achieving any genuine or long-term success at this club. However, this context doesn't mean a manager has zero influence on our results.

I've already said that I'm done with Postecoglou but one thing I find interesting is that he lost arguably the best striker in the world at the very start of his tenure and that's a mitigating factor that is almost never brought up. Maybe because he never got to use him but still, considering Kane's stats at the club and the lack of a proper replacement, it's not really that surprising that we are struggling (even more so if you consider that we also lost and never replaced one of the best playmakers in Eriksen).

In the end, his very strong start probably played against him. I don't think a mid table finish would be a crime considering the above and the fact that we invested in younger players (although I disagree with the way he's used them) but right now, we're lucky to stay up and that's completely unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned.
 
Robspur12 said:
The post would be good and get a "like" from me if Ange wasn't lumped in with the other managers. Ange is the outlier. For me, legitimately there are only 2 things which the board can be blamed for in respect of Ange - 1) appointing him in the first place given his experience; seems to me that Munn has to answer for that. 2) failing to recognize the wheels were falling off and sacking him earlier. Again likely to be on Munn IMHO. It's the polar opposite of the Nuno situation.
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Which I think we'd agree was somewhat unfair. He was never a true choice, he was effectively a placeholder who had a 5 wins 5 losses record, I believe we were 8th when we sacked him? I thought the football we played under him was dire, but I really felt sorry for the guy. I mean, really sorry for him.
 
thfcsteff said:
The postee clearly acknowledges Ange has fudged it, however it's a post that details there are other systemic issues in how we operate which need fixing if we want anyone to succeed here.
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He doesn't really though, does he? He likens Ange making mistakes to all our other previous managers making mistakes and concludes that it's not him that is the problem.

Which is complete BS - the owners may (and I stress the word may) be the reason we have a glass ceiling at the top of the league that we are not capable of pushing through but they are not to blame for us putting up a season like this one, that is entirely on the manager and brushing it off in a 'oh well all our managers make mistakes' comparison to Poch Conte Mourinho et all is absolutely scandalous
 
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billyiddo said:
He doesn't really though, does he? He likens Ange making mistakes to all our other previous managers making mistakes and concludes that it's not him that is the problem.

Which is complete BS - the owners may (and I stress the word may) be the reason we have a glass ceiling at the top of the league that we are not capable of pushing through but they are not to blame for us putting up a season like this one, that is entirely on the manager.
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Hmmm. No, he really does. The only conclusion he draws is there are more reasons than how s hite you think the manager is to our situation.

As for your second paragraph. Who hired the manager? Who stuck with him to this point? Why is he still here? Whose fault is that? They are absolutely part of the terrible season we've had, whichever angle you care to view it from.
 
Let's be honest though. Who would have a problem with Ange if we did the basics at the back right and stopped shipping goals?

The top 6 range after 33 games is 27-44 goals conceded. We're at 51.

The equivalent goals scored range is 58-75 but 5 of those teams are in a 58-64 range, with only Liverpool as an outlier on 75. Even though we can berate our forwards for not scoring enough we are right in that top 6 range.

I find it hard to defend Ange as he simply doesn't do the right things to defend properly.
 
thfcsteff said:
Hmmm. No, he really does. The only conclusion he draws is there are more reasons than how s hite you think the manager is to our situation.

As for your second paragraph. Who hired the manager? Who stuck with him to this point? Why is he still here? Whose fault is that? They are absolutely part of the terrible season we've had, whichever angle you care to view it from.
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The fans are partly to blame for him being here still, calling for him not to be sacked when it was clear he was out of his depth just because we should sack another manager or because it gets Levy off the hook
 
Muttley said:
Let's be honest though. Who would have a problem with Ange if we did the basics at the back right and stopped shipping goals?

The top 6 range after 33 games is 27-44 goals conceded. We're at 51.

The equivalent goals scored range is 58-75 but 5 of those teams are in a 58-64 range, with only Liverpool as an outlier on 75. Even though we can berate our forwards for not scoring enough we are right in that top 6 range.

I find it hard to defend Ange as he simply doesn't do the right things to defend properly.
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Hadn't really been paying attention to the goals against, but we could beat out 38 game record of 62 with 5 games left, 2 are are Villa and Liverpool.

As you point out , we are achieving not a lot in the league till that is cut down massively
 
thfcsteff said:
An excellent post IMO. In fact, for me personally, this is the best and most balanced post on our current situation I've read in ages. I'm interested to know how many people take the time read it properly as opposed to decide within secionds that it doesn't fit their own specific opinions on whomever.
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It was just my audition to be on your pod cast Steff.

But honestly, I don't think many read my longer posts, as like you said the world is now being atomically polarised to be positive or negative, and if there's a different view its dismissed.

We have the footprint to be one of the biggest footballing dynasties in world football. The only metric by which we are a big club right now is the number of trophies we won last century and the size of our stadium. Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford, Forest, Villa, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, are all competitors who on the footballing business side are better than us right now.

There are no trophies in football for being the toughest negotiator, or the club that does the most entertainment events in it's stadium. There is now a generation of players who lack the belief in project Tottenham, and whoever the manager is it de-rails somewhere.

We need to be great at business and great at football, sadly of late we seem to be only the former.
 
thfcsteff said:
Honestly, I'm not sure it's even a conversation at this point. My personal view is that he won't be here in the summer as no-one could survive both a season like this or the huge waves of pressurized and oft-negative energy circulating the club. So whether it is our choice or his, I fully expect him to be gone regardless of anything.
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Look at the earnings of the club - if we finish 17th we get £50m less than 4th or such - this will be the metric on which he is likely measured. It will then also form the basis of the club's recruitment policy in the summer because "we didn't achieve the on field objectives to fund the further development of the team".

This is my point - sacking Ange is the correct thing to do based on the performances but we will do it due to loss of earnings from our final league position.
 
billyiddo said:
It's a post that tries to absolve the manager of blame for producing the worst team performance in living memory because the club didn't manage to do all of the transfer work required when rebuilding the squad within a year.
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see hyperbole such as "living memory" don't help your cause here. There were worse teams in terms of the style and also performance. Spurs were relegated 76/77 which is well within living memory for a lot of fans.

I can see how you would think that I'm trying to absolve the manager of blame, but I'm really not. We're predictable, we're slow to start, we don't have very good approaches to defensive or offensive set pieces and there is about a 1 in 5 or 6 chance we're actually going to turn up and play "Ange ball". We're easy to play against and we're quite blunted up front at times. But under Conte there was a list of issues. Same under Jose. Same with Poch. There's always issues and while they are not all the same reason, the common denominator in the last 20 years is the owner.

So I am 100% aware of the issues. I watch with heavy heart, pretty much from the start of all games right now, because I expect to lose or at the very least go behind in games. The issue I have is that Conte, Nuno, Mourinho, Poch, etc etc etc have all at various points been left hung out to dry by the approach of the board to running the core element of the club - the football team. Ange spent 3 months without his first choice backline this season, and the replacements were not up to the job - some of that is his fault but some of it is also the fact that we don't spend in the right places at the right time, and the excuse is always "balancing the books".

I'm not anti Levy, I don't want him to leave, but what a clever guy who is at the top of his profession should be able to do is review and adapt the approach to the business to ensure success - something that we consistently get wrong. Most people realise when they are out of their depth deep down in their hearts, and I wonder if maybe its time for some of the long standing senior people at the club to have a really good look at their own performance.
 
Raziel said:
The status quo at this club has been European football, being in the top 6, 15 out of last 19 seasons, not being out of top 8 since 2008.

The outlier in all of your pitch is Ange. None of Poch, Conte, Jose, AVB, Sherwood, none of these guys finished outside the top 8. Somehow the thing you think are holding us back gave those guys the tools to be "almost" there. Ange has gotten more than almost all of them, 300M and all the fudging leeway in the world, and he's going to finish 16th or 17th with the worst league record in the club's history.

If this guy was 8th or even with a shot of finishing 8th, your view might hold water but it's (being polite) delusional.

Honestly, no fudging idea how/why people are deflecting from this guy, jesus, Harry & Poch at least gave us a few good years, this guy has literally given us 10 games followed by 18 months of absolute misery and you think it's because he didn't get LB cover?
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I'm not deflecting, nor am I deluded. I am simply saying if we want "success" then sacking Ange is not the complete answer. He's going to go soon, because he's failed in the job he was given, but there's so much more we need to sort is my point.
 
Surfless said:
see hyperbole such as "living memory" don't help your cause here. There were worse teams in terms of the style and also performance. Spurs were relegated 76/77 which is well within living memory for a lot of fans.

I can see how you would think that I'm trying to absolve the manager of blame, but I'm really not. We're predictable, we're slow to start, we don't have very good approaches to defensive or offensive set pieces and there is about a 1 in 5 or 6 chance we're actually going to turn up and play "Ange ball". We're easy to play against and we're quite blunted up front at times. But under Conte there was a list of issues. Same under Jose. Same with Poch. There's always issues and while they are not all the same reason, the common denominator in the last 20 years is the owner.

So I am 100% aware of the issues. I watch with heavy heart, pretty much from the start of all games right now, because I expect to lose or at the very least go behind in games. The issue I have is that Conte, Nuno, Mourinho, Poch, etc etc etc have all at various points been left hung out to dry by the approach of the board to running the core element of the club - the football team. Ange spent 3 months without his first choice backline this season, and the replacements were not up to the job - some of that is his fault but some of it is also the fact that we don't spend in the right places at the right time, and the excuse is always "balancing the books".

I'm not anti Levy, I don't want him to leave, but what a clever guy who is at the top of his profession should be able to do is review and adapt the approach to the business to ensure success - something that we consistently get wrong. Most people realise when they are out of their depth deep down in their hearts, and I wonder if maybe its time for some of the long standing senior people at the club to have a really good look at their own performance.
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Statistically we are worse this season than 76/77. It's just there are other teams that are even worse. Infact this season result wise in the league is the worst in our entire history.

So no not hyperbole.
 
Robspur12 said:
The post would be good and get a "like" from me if Ange wasn't lumped in with the other managers. Ange is the outlier. For me, legitimately there are only 2 things which the board can be blamed for in respect of Ange - 1) appointing him in the first place given his experience; seems to me that Munn has to answer for that. 2) failing to recognize the wheels were falling off and sacking him earlier. Again likely to be on Munn IMHO. It's the polar opposite of the Nuno situation.
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do you consider Ramos and Ange to be comparable?
 
Lilbaz said:
Statistically we are worse this season than 76/77. It's just there are other teams that are even worse. Infact this season result wise in the league is the worst in our entire history.

So no not hyperbole.
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interesting that you ignored the rest of my post and just focused on that bit though.
 
I think Daniel Levy is as aware as anyone that in the last 5 or 6 years he has fallen short on the football side of things, hence appointing a new CEO. I would expect that the new guy's arrival will be when Levy publicly says that he is distancing himself from all footballing matters, and leaving them to the CEO and his team. With a reasonably decent manager, next season should be a breath of fresh air....I remember how refreshing it was under Martin Jol, to go to the Lane expecting a home win. How times have changed for the worse.
 
Lilbaz said:
Statistically we are worse this season than 76/77. It's just there are other teams that are even worse. Infact this season result wise in the league is the worst in our entire history.

So no not hyperbole.
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also a very short bit or research has shown that while this season has the potential to be the worst we've had, actually the 1993/94 season was worse by almost any metric you want to consider, goals scored, goals conceded, games lost etc etc.

I'm going to throw up an olive branch here because being confrontational and negative AT each other is pointless, we all want the club to be better and I think Ange is unlikely to be here to be part of that - I just think we're in need of more than a new manager.
 
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