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*** OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v AZ - 6.3.25 ***

Grays_1890 said:
Of course and I like the bloke alot TBH and want him to work more than anyone, but its also not a finish 5th, spend fairly well and finish 14th either.

I more then most get the need for a project view but we can also admit he has got things wrong in his time here too, I think we would be lying to ourselves to say he has handled everything par for the situation
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I am absolutely not saying that either -- he has most definitely got things wrong. Everton away was an absolute shocker. But any manager will go through the same thing at Spurs, because of our resources relative to expectation.

Get Iraiola in and we'll be here again in 18-24 months.
 
tommysvr said:
I think the reaction to last night is an overreaction. We lost 1-0 away in Europe. Since 2000, we've won 21 out of 56 away European matches. Now the performance was quite obviously not good enough. But it's not the end of the world. We've been here before.

I also think the reaction to the losses has been over the top, because of the injuries (which, in turn leads to completely over the top "analysis" of Ange being at fault for all of them.)


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Do you think losing 18 games in a season at this point is acceptable?
 
tommysvr said:
I am absolutely not saying that either -- he has most definitely got things wrong. Everton away was an absolute shocker. But any manager will go through the same thing at Spurs, because of our resources relative to expectation.

Get Iraiola in and we'll be here again in 18-24 months.
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Actually, didn't you yourself want Ange gone after that Everton game? Or am i misinterpreting the posts you did on that day?
Also, do you not acknowledge that Ange is doing far worse wrt to resources than almost all his predecessors in the last decade?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Do you think losing 18 games in a season at this point is acceptable?
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It's a tough question to answer because I don't think of it in black and white terms like that. Of course in normal circumstances, no, it wouldn't be acceptable. But I think he's been dealt a really brick hand this season.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Actually, didn't you yourself want Ange gone after that Everton game? Or am i misinterpreting the posts you did on that day?
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I thought he was gone -- I think I posted something to that affect. For me that first half looked like absolute desperation from a manager who thought his time was limited. Everything that's happened since (ie, him not being fired) has proved me wrong there.
 
tommysvr said:
I am absolutely not saying that either -- he has most definitely got things wrong. Everton away was an absolute shocker. But any manager will go through the same thing at Spurs, because of our resources relative to expectation.

Get Iraiola in and we'll be here again in 18-24 months.
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I think he has miss managed resources at times which has compounded or been compounded by injuries, players coming in out the cold doing better than those deemed first teamers who could not get a sniff of a chance when everyone was fit to rest and rotate, I think thats alot of where these issues come from, whilst also acknowledging IMO that the likes of Madders and Co have not played anywhere near the standard their reputations and fees demand.

Its something like our first season out the top 7 in 15 years, not saying it has not been coming, but equally I am not sure I go along with the idea "everyones punched about their weight here" like some sell it. This season is a disaster, last night was as limp a performance as I have seen in a long time, its not a stretch to call it a pathetic showing
 
tommysvr said:
It's a tough question to answer because I don't think of it in black and white terms like that. Of course in normal circumstances, no, it wouldn't be acceptable. But I think he's been dealt a really brick hand this season.
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Dealt a bad hand? In what way? Injuries?

Also, do you not acknowledge that Ange is doing far worse wrt to resources than almost all his predecessors in the last decade?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Dealt a bad hand? In what way? Injuries?

Also, do you not acknowledge that Ange is doing far worse wrt to resources than almost all his predecessors in the last decade?
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Haha, you’re really asking me that? You think I’m going to say “yeah Ange has done a better job than others” when he literally has not by any metric.

I see you’re just trying to push me into a corner without any real care for my responses, so it’s not worth continuing.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think he has miss managed resources at times which has compounded or been compounded by injuries, players coming in out the cold doing better than those deemed first teamers who could not get a sniff of a chance when everyone was fit to rest and rotate, I think thats alot of where these issues come from, whilst also acknowledging IMO that the likes of Madders and Co have not played anywhere near the standard their reputations and fees demand.

Its something like our first season out the top 7 in 15 years, not saying it has not been coming, but equally I am not sure I go along with the idea "everyones punched about their weight here" like some sell it. This season is a disaster, last night was as limp a performance as I have seen in a long time, its not a stretch to call it a pathetic showing
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The injuries kicked off at the beginning of November. That’s ~8 weeks of football with 2 international breaks. Not really a huge amount of time to rotate. Remember when he did last year vs Fulham and we heard about that for about 6 months?

Once again…I’m not saying Ange has done things perfectly. I just think there’s more to it.
 
tommysvr said:
Haha, you’re really asking me that? You think I’m going to say “yeah Ange has done a better job than others” when he literally has not by any metric.

I see you’re just trying to push me into a corner without any real care for my responses, so it’s not worth continuing.
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I don't know what you mean by 'pushing you into a corner'...that sounds like you projecting somewhat.

I'm asking you these questions because
a) you have always seemed the most Pro-Ange on here
b) you seem to know the most about him, his career and how he works

So i'm trying to get as much possible information to see if many of us indeed can't see what you can from knowing his history etc.
But if this discussion is 'pushing you into a corner' then yes it's best to stop
 
tommysvr said:
I am absolutely not saying that either -- he has most definitely got things wrong. Everton away was an absolute shocker. But any manager will go through the same thing at Spurs, because of our resources relative to expectation.

Get Iraiola in and we'll be here again in 18-24 months.
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I don't follow this line of reasoning.

He's not performing at par. Any manager that comes in and has us around 7th in contention for 4th, who looks like he's adapting his style to what he's working with will be fine. It's a bit of a cop out to when people say if Ange goes we'll be back here in 24 months. We wouldn't be here now if he hadn't made the mistakes he's made. A manager who gets us playing with a structure that makes the opposition work for their chances will be an immediate upgrade.
People are fine with a rebuild and time, but that rebuild doesn't need us this low down in the table and doesn't need these types of performances. We had a week to prepare for this game and it looked like we just rolled up from a bender in Ibiza.
Having your full backs push up and high from goal kicks and then passing it short to you cb's against the press is tactical suicide. Yet we do it game after game no matter how much we give the ball away.
The interview with Dier stating that Ange doesn't concentrate on the opposition and then Ange confirming it, again is not something that should be happening. We play in isolation like it doesn't matter about the other team, but it does, cause that pay attention to us and then counter it.

And I'm purely talking about on the pitch, not about Levy or Enic or what Ange does or doesn't have. His job is to manage the football team and get the best out of the resources he has. People called Jose and Cone chequebook managers, but bemoan Ange doesn't have the squad. No manager of Tottenham will ever have the best squad, tha't why they have to be able to manage and be tactically astute.
 
harr1984 said:
Couple of different points as pointless going over the collective performance, we all know what it was:

From what I've seen of Spence at RB I prefer him at LB, and Porro RB. Udogie has been poor for a long time now, he doesn't deserve to be in our strongest XI and for all the question marks about Porro defensively (which I think can be over exaggerated at times) we miss a lot from the quality he brings going forward.

Odobert was poor one on one in this game, but what I liked is that after the first couple of times of not beating his man he continued to be direct and kept trying. Sure, it wasn't his night - it happens. But I was happy that he didn't go back in his shell and just start checking back and passing it backwards like many wingers do, he had the confidence to keep trying....
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Tbh I prefer Spence to any of our full backs and that’s at left back or right back. He should be first choice at either right back or left back.
 
tommysvr said:
The injuries kicked off at the beginning of November. That’s ~8 weeks of football with 2 international breaks. Not really a huge amount of time to rotate. Remember when he did last year vs Fulham and we heard about that for about 6 months?

Once again…I’m not saying Ange has done things perfectly. I just think there’s more to it.
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There were games when like Southampton, West Ham and Villa was it? We were out of sight by HT if not 60 mins and the insistence to continue to play key players to 80 odd if not FT just looks as odd now as it did then. Thats all I am saying, if we had from the start used players who are now being forced on him to use, who are performing fair TBH, maybe it would have been better.

Injuries of course have a massive impact, no denial there, I just equally don't believe they tell the full story
 
He just isn’t a very good manager. Yes we don’t win a lot away in Europe, yes when the going gets tough you know we usually fold, sexy blah blah.

But the performance last night isn’t in isolation, this is manager who has been consistently poor since November 2023. It was clear as day from then, that his philosophy ( if you can call it that) isn’t working and his refusal ( or more like inability) to adapt is costing us. We are an awful watch and him staying is now doing us far more harm than good.

Even my ability to pray for a miracle and open someone turns it round is nonexistent. If we actually have a semblance of a competent performance it’s actually a surprise. The turgid crap this manager serves up is the norm for his reign.

Thanks Ange for those ten games and a Robbie Williams singalong at the Singapore GP but apart from that it’s been gash
 
fernadez said:
People are fine with a rebuild and time, but that rebuild doesn't need us this low down in the table and doesn't need these types of performances.
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Every PL team is in a constant rebuild. The rebuild nonsense around us is pumped out by those at the top of the club to excuse continuing poor performances and lack of development over years.

Fergie used to rebuild teams while still winning PLs and CLs. I'm not expecting that with us - but I'm not expecting bottom half of the table and awful football either.
 
thfcsteff said:
I think that's very unfair. It is not 'delusional' to stay back from judging a side/squad/manager who is without 10 first-team players for a stretch of time. In fact, I think it is appropriate and on-point to wait and see what happens when some of those players start coming back. Which is what we're seeing now. What would ACTUALLY be delusional would be to make excuses for performances such as tonight and the manager's central role in them. It was brick, and he brick the bed in terms of prep. This one is on him for sure.
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Sorry for the late reply, I thought I submitted it yesterday.

He doesn't have 10 players missing now, he didn't have 10 players missing at the begining of the season and he didn't have 10 players missing last season either. You're making conditions and excuses for the poor performances we are consistently putting out.
 
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