• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

World Cup 2026: Mexico, USA and Canada

SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I’ve listened to Tuchel’s explanation for them and I agree with his rationale. Doesn’t mean it worked. Doesn’t mean something else might not have either. But the rationale was sound.

What we saw was not purely a result of the substitutions. 12% possession after going a goal up is a fudging disaster, and no manager would coach that as part of the plan.
Click to expand...

TBH any good communicator could largely talk away any subs they make to an extent
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I’m genuinely interested in the debate here because honestly I think the country has lost its collective head over this loss, and I think the blame Tuchel is getting is too much, with the players getting too little.

Tuchel simply would not have asked the players to defend so much to the extent that they only had 12% possession. Clearly there was a breakdown somewhere. And it’s frustrating me that people willingly ignore Tuchel’s quotes, and Kane’s, that the plan was to get the second goal. Also actual analysis done by eg Andros Townsend or Michael Cox that shows what was actually happening.

Secondly, Tuchel is completely right that 3 centre backs doesn’t inherently mean being so defensive. Some of the best football we played under Poch was with 3 at the back.

Thirdly, all of the analysis from the England perspective ignores that Argentina were throwing men forward, 6 in their forward line including their centre backs, because they had nothing to lose. Tuchel had to react to that.

Fourth, it bugs me no end that everyone assumes the alternative changes would have been better and won us the game. Ok bring Rashford and Watkins on, try for the second, make it a basketball match. The Spence tackle comes because we’re pushed up and if people think Messi was finding space on the wing as we sat deep, he certainly would have found space to slide passes through if we pushed up.

I note that everyone likes to have a go at managers like Ange for being naive, not being street smart and seeing games out. And they also like to rag on managers like Moyes and Frank for inviting pressure on. And they like to rag on Conte when his pragmatic system doesn’t deliver results. My point is…winners get a great narrative and losers have to deal with all the criticism. There was no perfect solution. The issue was we came up against Messi, and whatever we did, he would have found space. Ultimately to stand a chance, the players needed to show more composure on the pitch, and execute. If they read the Konsa sub as an instruction to dig in Ala Mexico, that’s on them.

Ultimately Tuchel is doing the right thing by not throwing the players under the bus. He’ll never be able to fully say publicly that they needed to execute better on the pitch. And frankly it’s more than they deserve considering the leaking and briefing that seems to already have happened from the player’s side.

There is simply no way Tuchel architected a game plan to see it out that relied on 12% possession for 40 minutes. For him to get all of the blame is too much IMO.
Click to expand...

I am out and about so on phone, thus shortish reply now with 'war & peace' level to come LOL!

I unequivocally stand by blaming Tuchel 100%. It is his job to be prepared. He'd have known the levels of physical and mental fatigue on the squad, he'd have known the phases when substitutions were important. He'd also have seen that Argentina were worried about giving up space to pace, and he had Saka, Rashford,and Madueke on the bench (if Saka wasn't fit then he gets a pass there).

There was no plan beyond 'build a wall'.
Why not bring Mainoo on, a player who likes the ball and can work in tight spaces?
Why not bring Saka and Rashford on? Force Scaloni to keep his LB on and not make another attacking sub?
And if you leave Kane on, why not play him in midfield to feed Rashford and Saka? He most certainly is not going to lead the press at that time? In fact, be brave and if you have no real plan to use one of your two outstanding talents, rather than leaving him to wither out there, bring Watkins on.

Lastly, read the room in the moment!

I have no issue with losing, my issue is with the way we lost. It was unecessary!

Tuchel is gaslighting everyone and it is poor, poor form. I'd sack him tomm.

(Is this the 'war & peace' length anyway LOL)
 
harr1984 said:
Ex players have discussed many times on podcasts etc how they have all been there where the team is under pressure and they just get deeper and deeper whilst the manager is telling them to get up the pitch. When under the pump some players/teams simply wilt and get pegged further and further back against the managers intentions.

Tuchel is open for criticism of course, and I didn't agree with his subs but sometimes that works and sometimes it doesnt - we were getting pegged back before the subs, and that wasn't because Tuchel instructed the team to drop deep....
Click to expand...

...but it is HIS job to be prepared for this potential scenario and have some answers! Two years around our, ahem, 'DNA' and he had nothing but capitulation. Nothing. I mean, he did, even though his squad were limited he had options...alas when the moment to brave came, he hid.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Yeah I think by the time Burn is on, that is likely the case. And frankly…that’s fine? If the players are knackered, and they can’t do anymore, and we have about ten minutes left. Try and see it out,

What I’m not having is this idea that Tuchel specifically directed the team to defend their box for 40 minutes and get 12% possession, and that the Konsa sub was the thing that made that all happen. That’s just not how football works.

We were playing against Messi. If we had tired players going end to end for the second, he would have broken us down another way. All of this talk of ‘he found space on our right!’…of course he did! He just goes where the spades are and the whole Argentina team moves around him. If the spaces were elsewhere, he would have gone there.
Click to expand...


The sub to react to was Simeone off and De Paul on. De Paul's influence on the game/Messi growing into it by drifting wider, was massive. Managers are paid to know this could happen, or even spot it happening and counter sub immediately.

We needed to get a wide refresh on at that point and Mainoo on for Rice. We needed to
make sure De Paul wasn't free to allow Messi to drift further right, and we needed to make sure Tagliafico was not rendered surplus and deny Martinez the chance to come on.

He has a water break. Are we seriously suggesting that in this convenience break Tuchel had NOTHING because of our 'DNA'?

Tuchel shat it.
 
thfcsteff said:
...but it is HIS job to be prepared for this potential scenario and have some answers! Two years around our, ahem, 'DNA' and he had nothing but capitulation. Nothing. I mean, he did, even though his squad were limited he had options...alas when the moment to brave came, he hid.
Click to expand...
Sure, I said he's open to criticism? I'm saying specifically the players getting deeper was on the players not instructions from the manager. Beyond that, Tuchel has to look at himself for sure.....
 
Tbf Tuchel said after most games that the 'connection' wasn't there.
100% the heart, desire and fight was (something we rarely lack).
It was similar to Frank constantly looking for the signs of connection, rhythm, fluidity.
Alas, they waited for something and nothing arrived.

(Well, Argentina and Messi did:))
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Tbf Tuchel said after most games that the 'connection' wasn't there.
100% the heart, desire and fight was (something we rarely lack).
It was similar to Frank constantly looking for the signs of connection, rhythm, fluidity.
Alas, they waited for something and nothing arrived.

(Well, Argentina and Messi did:))
Click to expand...
I think this says an awful lot mate...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back