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Thomas Frank - Former Head Coach

SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
We simply weren’t shocking after the first 10 games. There were plenty of great wins. Just actually look at the results. There was a tough period after the Chelsea home (lots of injuries and suspensions came there) and a tough period towards the end of the season where we essentially played the top 4 all in a row.

I just don’t believe we were going to get battered every week if we didn’t have a horrific injury crisis under Ange. And I would rather we at least try something different that allows us the opportunity to try and compete above our station. Otherwise we’re just coming in about 6th every year and not doing much of anything.

I can appreciate that it’s a personal preference. But I never was against Ange because I wouldn’t want him to be something he’s not anyway. We should have hired him knowing we’re taking a big swing, high risk, high reward. I’d say that because part of this whole strategy is his unwavering belief which let the squad together, we got the reward in the end with a trophy in any case.
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All for big swings! Even more so after the medium swing of Frank ended up hitting ourselves in the face at least as hard as the big swing did.

Also very much agreed that we weren't always shocking after that first 10 games. Inconsistent for sure, but prefer that to consistently bad.

There will never be a real consensus on Ange. The untested hypothesis of what could he have done building on that EL win will never be tested. Feels like the consensus is much stronger on Frank already. Good manager, good lad, not right for us.
 
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thfcsteff said:
But we didn't spend with CL qualification money either, unless you are referring to the actual money you get at the end of the season for finishing 4th?
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Ange said that he had players he wanted (the list much reported) BUT the viability of getting more than one of them was reduced because we finished 5th rather than 4th (this bit not reported) because of no CL money guaranteed for that season.

(Neville podcast)

Its just a stripped out incomplete quote for a headline to bash the club with or to cause fan anger.
 
braineclipse said:
All for big swings! Even more so after the medium swing of Frank ended up hitting ourselves in the face at least as hard as the big swing did.

Also very much agreed that we weren't always shocking after that first 10 games. Inconsistent for sure, but prefer that to consistently bad.

There will never be a real consensus on Ange. The untested hypothesis of what could he have done building on that EL win will never be tested. Feels like the consensus is much stronger on Frank already. Good manager, good lad, not right for us.
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Agree on Frank, but similar to Ange, also quite possibly a level found kind of result.

Not sure I agree on Ange, I think the Forest job should have shown anyone who wanted to look what we already knew, he was sussed out badly in PL and had no counter, he wouldn't have lasted 10 games this season.
 
Raziel said:
Agree on Frank, but similar to Ange, also quite possibly a level found kind of result.

Not sure I agree on Ange, I think the Forest job should have shown anyone who wanted to look what we already knew, he was sussed out badly in PL and had no counter, he wouldn't have lasted 10 games this season.
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On Frank perhaps level found, but more so type of club/situation imo.

It seems you're in full agreement that there isn't a strong consensus on Ange 😉

The Forest job was possibly worse suited to Ange than the job here was to Frank.
 
braineclipse said:
On Frank perhaps level found, but more so type of club/situation imo.

It seems you're in full agreement that there isn't a strong consensus on Ange 😉

The Forest job was possibly worse suited to Ange than the job here was to Frank.
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I know you are having a little fun mate, but really there is nothing outstanding on Ange.

He spent a lifetime building a system that is risk/reward, what has been clearly demonstrated at top level the risk is punished beyond what you get for the reward, it's literally that simple. Yes, there is likely some similar silly arguments to what would happen if you gave Ossie an unlimited budget, but reality is, even if you got Ange way better players, he'd injure them so quickly it wouldn't matter. In a real world scenario his system does not work at highest levels.
 
thfcsteff said:
Well mate, we'll never know because we never did take the gamble to see what a European trophy-winning group could do between them.
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Looking back now....one thing that annoyed me about Ange is how he completely gave up on the league.

I'm not saying he should have tried harder so we got a few more points BUT as a development and discovery period. We had the luxury that season of 26pts would keep you up (a ridiculously low total).
He had just 5 EL games that really needed precise preparation.
After the Man U win we had 13 league games to do as we pleased with. That's a third of a season prep time to refine, adjust and show that, yeah, there might be life in this project yet. (And I'm not talking about results).

But it appears that, whether it was just a vibe he had or knew directly, that Feb hunch he was done for (as stated on the Neville podcast), just manifested in him not giving a fudge about those games and focusing on his self serving 'delivering a trophy in his second season'

To have just over a third of a season in this league as a gift of free hits to tune your team is almost unheard of.

I'm sure he could have made the decision much harder for the board especially as he had a trophy as an ace card.
 
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tommysvr said:
fudge me dead there are still people spouting this absolute garbage (sorry, “reality”)
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Exactly, Ange somehow got a horrendous injury record for one reason or another and Thomas Frank continued this to form. To blame Ange solely on this not ok, but I’m sure it’s got some part to do with it also.
 
Raziel said:
I know you are having a little fun mate, but really there is nothing outstanding on Ange.

He spent a lifetime building a system that is risk/reward, what has been clearly demonstrated at top level the risk is punished beyond what you get for the reward, it's literally that simple. Yes, there is likely some similar silly arguments to what would happen if you gave Ossie an unlimited budget, but reality is, even if you got Ange way better players, he'd injure them so quickly it wouldn't matter. In a real world scenario his system does not work at highest levels.
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I'm not even having fun with that. The consensus just isn't that strong.

I don't think it's that simple. But also it's the case that this lack of consensus will just continue. Come the summer we'll have our third manager since Ange got sacked (including Tudor) and we could discuss this until we are on our tenth manager since Ange (perhaps won't be that long if our recent record continues) and still not agree. So agreed to disagree?
 
Raziel said:
I know you are having a little fun mate, but really there is nothing outstanding on Ange.

He spent a lifetime building a system that is risk/reward, what has been clearly demonstrated at top level the risk is punished beyond what you get for the reward, it's literally that simple. Yes, there is likely some similar silly arguments to what would happen if you gave Ossie an unlimited budget, but reality is, even if you got Ange way better players, he'd injure them so quickly it wouldn't matter. In a real world scenario his system does not work at highest levels.
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The disagreement I have with this is as I said last season we essentially played the same system as Flick Barcelona just with far inferior players. Flick is proof that it can work with the appropriate players. Now of course we are never going to acquire players of that calibre so you might as well say it would never work here, but his actual ideals and model can work but he just needs exceptional players for that to be the case.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Yep, but still thought he actually new more than him about football.... I wonder whether Arnesen would've been more likely to stay if he had a chairman who actually listened to him instead of thinking he knew more?
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Did he? And you know this for a fact because it suits your agenda? Or Santini was already lined up? You'd have a hard time convincing anyone that we'll be better off with the manager of RKC Waalwijk (who'd just finished 11th with a win percentage of 38%), rather than the soon to be (envisaged) Euro winning French manager. Maybe Santini would have worked if Arnesen had backed him rather than undermine him? Arnesen left for more money, simple as.

I would guess Levy hasn't ever made a decision without confiding in 'football' people. The only one I can believe was on him would be Mourinho, because he had a dream of the best stadium with the best manager. Unfortunately, by the time the stadium was built, Mourinho was yesterdays man, and he definitely got that one wrong.

Levy had long been a believer in a DoF - why would you do that if you think you know more about football than them?
 
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Lemonade Money said:
Did he? And you know this for a fact because it suits your agenda? Or Santini was already lined up? You'd have a hard time convincing anyone that we'll be better off with the manager of RKC Waalwijk (who'd just finished 11th with a win percentage of 38%), rather than the soon to be (envisaged) Euro winning French manager. Maybe Santini would have worked if Arnesen had backed him rather than undermine him? Arnesen left for more money, simple as.

I would guess Levy has ever made a decision without confiding in 'football' people. The only one I can believe was on him would be Mourinho, because he had a dream of the best stadium with the best manager. Unfortunately, by the time the stadium was built, Mourinho was yesterdays man, and he definitely got that one wrong.

Levy had long been a believer in a DoF - why would you do that if you think you know more about football than them?
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I’m sure Levy always consults football people. Was interesting about football though is that there are so many different styles, systems, philosophies and agendas that people have, that he can take as much advice as possible but the buck stops with him. He is the one that has to have a sense for what the club needs at the time he has to make the decision. And no one else can really tell him.
 
Raziel said:
I know you are having a little fun mate, but really there is nothing outstanding on Ange.

He spent a lifetime building a system that is risk/reward, what has been clearly demonstrated at top level the risk is punished beyond what you get for the reward, it's literally that simple. Yes, there is likely some similar silly arguments to what would happen if you gave Ossie an unlimited budget, but reality is, even if you got Ange way better players, he'd injure them so quickly it wouldn't matter. In a real world scenario his system does not work at highest levels.
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The Forest job just shows he shouldn’t have taken over mid season from a manager that played a completely different way to the way he did. I think it’s an interesting example of how unwavering self belief can actually lead you to make a really stupid decision, which joining Forest was.

I think there’s a fair question as to whether Ange would have worked in the league this season with the focus on duels and set pieces. But overall we simply will never know whether he could have worked out better with us if given the shot, or at another club when not taking over in a crazy situation.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Looking back now....one thing that annoyed me about Ange is how he completely gave up on the league.

I'm not saying he should have tried harder so we got a few more points BUT as a development and discovery period. We had the luxury that season of 26pts would keep you up (a ridiculously low total).
He had just 5 EL games that really needed precise preparation.
After the Man U win we had 13 league games to do as we pleased with. That's a third of a season prep time to refine, adjust and show that, yeah, there might be life in this project yet. (And I'm not talking about results).

But it appears that, whether it was just a vibe he had or knew directly, that Feb hunch he was done for (as stated on the Neville podcast), just manifested in him not giving a fudge about those games and focusing on his self serving 'delivering a trophy in his second season'

To have a third of a season in this league as a gift of free hits to tune your team is almost unheard of.

I'm sure he could have made the decision much harder for the board especially as he had a trophy as an ace card.
Click to expand...

I do wonder if he viewed the league games last season just about getting the squad to the summer. In the sense that, so many of them had probably been played in the red zone that he wanted to tamper down the intensity and just get through. I don’t know that for sure but it was clear he wasn’t even playing what people commonly refer to as Ange ball.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I do wonder if he viewed the league games last season just about getting the squad to the summer. In the sense that, so many of them had probably been played in the red zone that he wanted to tamper down the intensity and just get through. I don’t know that for sure but it was clear he wasn’t even playing what people commonly refer to as Ange ball.
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I'm not sure any manager who was convinced HE wouldn't be here in the summer, is doing any work towards getting the squad thru to the summer.

It was pretty much NothingBall.
 
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Finney Is Back said:
Yep, but still thought he actually new more than him about football.... I wonder whether Arnesen would've been more likely to stay if he had a chairman who actually listened to him instead of thinking he knew more?
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Another great spender of other peoples money in that role, interesting that nothing ever stuck for Arnesen, ended up being nomadic around Europe lasting months rather than years in jobs
 
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