Thomas Frank - Former Head Coach

[Raziel]

Erm, he just won Serie A and the SuperCoppa. He's doing rather well without Spurz.

At Napoli and still burning out in first rounds in European competitions, still talking brick about his employers.

His ego thinks he should be managing Real/Barca/City/Bayern, jobs he won't get.

Edit: To be clear, I still think he's a good football manager, but Spurs was a reality check for him, his volatility limits his appeal and the Napoli gig was a rebuild. His peak of Juve/Chelsea is gone

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

At Napoli and still burning out in first rounds in European competitions, still talking brick about his employers.

His ego thinks he should be managing Real/Barca/City/Bayern, jobs he won't get.

Edit: To be clear, I still think he's a good football manager, but Spurs was a reality check for him, his volatility limits his appeal and the Napoli gig was a rebuild. His peak of Juve/Chelsea is gone

How he managed not to qualify for the next round with this new CL format is quite something!

 

[Gazza]

At Napoli and still burning out in first rounds in European competitions, still talking brick about his employers.

His ego thinks he should be managing Real/Barca/City/Bayern, jobs he won't get.

Edit: To be clear, I still think he's a good football manager, but Spurs was a reality check for him, his volatility limits his appeal and the Napoli gig was a rebuild. His peak of Juve/Chelsea is gone

He’s won the title. I think his ego comes from being a player that played in elite teams and winning loads. That’s not a bad thing as he’s got drive and will do and say whatever it takes that he feels he needs to get the job done.

He’s had his best player sold and still won the league.

He was a bad fit at spurs because he couldn’t get what he wanted which is naive on his behalf because he should have known that we don’t back the manager to win but just to take punts in the market.

All this talk about him being a busted flag is ridiculous. He has it all to prove in European competition though, that’s why I think he’s not at Real Madrid or Bayern. He would be considered if he had a decent record in Europe. Not because he’s a busted flush.

If he went to city after pep I wouldn’t be surprised if he went on to win the league.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I have to say, after catching up on this week’s podcasts, it does make me more angry that the club appointed Frank and wasted this season, and put us into a very real thread of relegation. I really tried to see the logic in it, but it’s clearly been a disastrous decision.

Really interesting listening to Poch on the High Performance podcast. What comes out is so much of the insight he offers as a manager is not what you can read on a spreadsheet. It’s about genuine connections, authentic leadership, empathy, having a sense for something by the actions of the human being. Eg being able to see that Kane was going to be quality worth investing in because of the way he acted around the training ground, or the way he could touch and finish. Little things that don’t show up on a spreadsheet, and in that example with the club wanting to move him out for Welbeck, thank GHod we had a manager who had a great sense of what the right thing to do was. Equally the example of not putting out a statement saying he was happy with his 3 striker options…Poch rightly deduced it would look defensive and to Kane like he had something to defend about him because he was the third option.

Brings me to JPB on TVFTL pod. Talking about how the players never looked like they really believed in Frank’s plan. The slow starts. The ability to raise the game in the second half when the plan sort of has to go out of the window and we need to fight to get back in the game.

Overall, there’s a big theme here about the club being overly invested in ‘the data’ and not having a good sense of what our squad of players actually needs. And then there’s a sense of Frank, for as good a man as he is, also just not being the right person for this squad. Lange has serious questions to answer for putting us in this position. I think they made completely the wrong conclusions about Ange’s tenure. And then drew completely the wrong conclusions about what the data said about what Frank could do for us. Eg ‘our model says he over performed by X amount at Brentford, if he does the same with us we’ll be golden!’.

What made Poch an interesting manager for us wasn’t that he ‘over performed’, it was that he developed younger players into a cohesive unit, on top of the foundations of a culture of high standards, and the right balance of structure and freedom, so that they actually became elite level footballers. They weren’t over performing, they just reached a high level together. Frank’s approach is rooted in ‘over performance’ and not reaching an elite level. And I think our squad of clearly talented players wants to see a path to performing at an elite level, to be trusted to play like that. Which is why they never believed in Frank.

So yeah, pretty angry now being able to reflect on all of this! A wasted season, and a genuine chance of relegation. And it was all so avoidable. This did not need to happen. A repeated cascade of utterly terrible decisions by people who don’t really get football or who are in positions of power way above what they deserve.

 

[Mabspurs]

I guess we'll soon see if our squad of clearly talented players can suddenly remember how to run and execute a half decent pass....

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I have to say, after catching up on this week’s podcasts, it does make me more angry that the club appointed Frank and wasted this season, and put us into a very real thread of relegation. I really tried to see the logic in it, but it’s clearly been a disastrous decision.

Why? Hindsight?

He was talked about for years as one of the most respected managers out of the top 4, you couldn't move for a piece written about him and how good he was as a coach or a feature about him at Brentford. We can all sneer about Brentford not being as big a club, but we can recognise and respect the work he did there, he was a very good PL manager and proved that for a couple of seasons. People are waxing lyrical about Andrews being 8th and hot stuff, Frank had them 9th and 10th in seasons before, so there is a massive rewriting of history here.

The move was wrong because the fit didn't work, there are also other reasons IMO that are outside that too but Its going over all conversations, but I am not angry that we appointed Frank because hindsight tells us that it was a bad fit

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Why? Hindsight?

He was talked about for years as one of the most respected managers out of the top 4, you couldn't move for a piece written about him and how good he was as a coach or a feature about him at Brentford. We can all sneer about Brentford not being as big a club, but we can recognise and respect the work he did there, he was a very good PL manager and proved that for a couple of seasons. People are waxing lyrical about Andrews being 8th and hot stuff, Frank had them 9th and 10th in seasons before, so there is a massive rewriting of history here.

The move was wrong because the fit didn't work, there are also other reasons IMO that are outside that too but Its going over all conversations, but I am not angry that we appointed Frank because hindsight tells us that it was a bad fit

I don’t take away Frank being good as a manager, and good for certain situations. I think he might also do ok in Italy where his game structure is more common.

But…the point is that we was just so utterly the wrong fit for us, and the squad. Taking away that there are literally zero examples of managers playing reactive percentage football and over performing with a mid table team and repeating that in a top 6 job…he was just wasn’t what the squad needed. For whatever people will say about Ange, the squad believed in his motivation, his belief in them, the fact that they were trusted to play elite level football. Now, fine to make the case that Ange wasn’t the long term fit for us. But we handed the squad someone who came in saying we would lose matches, and who clearly never inspired the players behind the way he wanted to play.

So yeah it’s hindsight, but the people in power are paid to get these decisions right. And as much as Frank is a good manager in certain contexts, there was so much to suggest he wasn’t right for us. And the reasons they appointed him also suggest they misread the reasons for why Ange struggled.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

there was so much to suggest he wasn’t right for us. And the reasons they appointed him also suggest they misread the reasons for why Ange struggled.

I don't think there was TBH, they didn't appoint him in bad faith, I think Vinai and Lange has some answering to do on things 100% but no one gets these decision right all the time regardless if they are paid to do so, there isn't a football club in the world that can predict the future success of managers and players and therefore don't make mistakes, they all do it. I can't be angry for us appointing Frank

When Frank was appointed you were one that said he would be a success and you had no doubt on that, now granted you are not paid to make the decisions and we can all be contrary, I am 100% the same, but lets be at least a little fair on it

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Why? Hindsight?

He was talked about for years as one of the most respected managers out of the top 4, you couldn't move for a piece written about him and how good he was as a coach or a feature about him at Brentford. We can all sneer about Brentford not being as big a club, but we can recognise and respect the work he did there, he was a very good PL manager and proved that for a couple of seasons. People are waxing lyrical about Andrews being 8th and hot stuff, Frank had them 9th and 10th in seasons before, so there is a massive rewriting of history here.

The move was wrong because the fit didn't work, there are also other reasons IMO that are outside that too but Its going over all conversations, but I am not angry that we appointed Frank because hindsight tells us that it was a bad fit

And sorry, to make a more succinct point, the reasons Frank failed were entirely predictable at the time of the appointment, that’s why I’m angry. And I’d be less angry if we were hovering in mid table. But we’re in a very real relegation battle. It has been a monumentally bad decision.

And even at the time of the appointment, I was saying, when a lot of other people were saying that Frank was a good appointment because we needed balance, we needed pragmatism. I was arguing at the time that football isn’t like that. Ange never lost the players, and I wasn’t convinced they needed a whole different style. Because I contended the reasons for the struggles last year were predominantly the injuries. You can disagree with that, but I was saying it at the time that it wasn’t like Frank was going to be some cheat code for us just because he was more pragmatic where as Ange was naive.

I came to try and understand what Frank was trying to do and try to defend it. But let’s be clear, 2 wins in 17 games. The squad clearly didn’t believe in him and the first sign of difficulty there was nothing to inspire them behind it. It has been a catastrophic decision, arguably one of the worst managerial appointments ever. Again, because it was all so predictable. I thought they were appointing him for the wrong reasons at the time.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I don't think there was TBH, they didn't appoint him in bad faith, I think Vinai and Lange has some answering to do on things 100% but no one gets these decision right all the time regardless if they are paid to do so, there isn't a football club in the world that can predict the future success of managers and players and therefore don't make mistakes, they all do it. I can't be angry for us appointing Frank

When Frank was appointed you were one that said he would be a success and you had no doubt on that, now granted you are not paid to make the decisions and we can all be contrary, I am 100% the same, but lets be at least a little fair on it

I have been one of the people trying to defend Frank as much as possible but I think if you look at my posts at the time he was appointed I was saying that Frank’s approach wasn’t the cheat code, that I wasn’t convinced it was what the squad needed because they never actually lost faith in Ange. And I was worried that by drawing the wrong conclusions of why Ange struggled last season (eg the decline in form in his last 18 months versus his first 6, which they mentioned in the sacking announcement) that they would the make an appointment to rectify the wrong things. Because they missed the context. And honestly I think that’s exactly what has happened.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

And sorry, to make a more succinct point, the reasons Frank failed were entirely predictable at the time of the appointment, that’s why I’m angry.

You literally said "We’ll be good under Frank. I have no doubt" at the time of appointment?? You certainly wasn't angry at the time, we can all claim to be cautious when any manager is appointed. But I don't buy this hindsight "I always knew" because honestly no one ever truly knows whats coming down the road.

That confuses me with the argument you seem to be making.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I don't think there was TBH, they didn't appoint him in bad faith, I think Vinai and Lange has some answering to do on things 100% but no one gets these decision right all the time regardless if they are paid to do so, there isn't a football club in the world that can predict the future success of managers and players and therefore don't make mistakes, they all do it. I can't be angry for us appointing Frank

When Frank was appointed you were one that said he would be a success and you had no doubt on that, now granted you are not paid to make the decisions and we can all be contrary, I am 100% the same, but lets be at least a little fair on it

Let’s be clear here. It’s not like they’ve made the wrong appointment and we’ve slipped from CL to conference league. That’s a ‘well you can’t win em all’ kind of situation with respect to managerial appointments.

We are literally in a relegation battle with 12 games to go. We sacked a trophy winning manager who the squad respected and who never lost faith in him despite a historic injury crisis. And we appointed someone to ‘compete on all fronts’ (again a statement they made when letting Ange go and hiring Frank, and again seemingly missing the context of why Ange prioritised one thing) and ended up in a relegation battle. It has been monumentally bad.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

You literally said "We’ll be good under Frank. I have no doubt" at the time of appointment?? You certainly wasn't angry at the time, we can all claim to be cautious when any manager is appointed. But I don't buy this hindsight "I always knew" because honestly no one ever truly knows whats coming down the road.

That confuses me with the argument you seem to be making.

Mate, just read my posts. If I said ‘we will be good under Frank, I have no doubt’ it was because I thought he would at minimum have us back in 6-8th. I was not expecting this! And I’m not running the club! For all I know, they had information that I didn’t that suggested Ange was a laughing stock and the players were delighted to get rid, and that they were crying out for more pragmatic football.

I am a fan, and I’m always going to try and be optimistic once the decision is made. And indeed I’ve been one of the people trying to defend Frank’s method even in this horrific last run.

That doesn’t take away from the fact that at the time I was cautioning against Frank being this saviour; or the idea that Ange’s nativity was going to be rectified by Frank’s pragmatism. Because I didn’t think that was the reason for our struggles last year. I thought it was injuries. And I definitely said that at the time.

Multiple things can be true. I definitely did not expect Frank to be this bad. I definitely have tried to defend his method and style of play, even his approach in press conferences. But I definitely also did say at the time I was worried the club were drawing the wrong conclusions from last season’s struggles.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I was cautioning against Frank being this saviour

And thats fine mate, I just don't think that translates to it being the wrong decision even at the time when you said you thought he would be a success, I don't think there is grounds to be angry in that regard.

Not aimed at you but there is some hefty revisions of history being spouted now, some suggesting he was not a coveted manager when he literally turned down Chelsea previously.

Let’s be clear here. It’s not like they’ve made the wrong appointment and we’ve slipped from CL to conference league. That’s a ‘well you can’t win em all’ kind of situation with respect to managerial appointments.

We are literally in a relegation battle with 12 games to go. We sacked a trophy winning manager who the squad respected and who never lost faith in him despite a historic injury crisis. And we appointed someone to ‘compete on all fronts’ (again a statement they made when letting Ange go and hiring Frank, and again seemingly missing the context of why Ange prioritised one thing) and ended up in a relegation battle. It has been monumentally bad.

TBH there are different things, thats the outcome, not he thought process or reaction at the time he was appointed. I am not happy at how things have worked out, but I am more sad than angry, I am angry more than another manager has been hung out to dry for massive short comings at the club.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

And thats fine mate, I just don't think that translates to it being the wrong decision even at the time when you said you thought he would be a success, I don't think there is grounds to be angry in that regard.

Not aimed at you but there is some hefty revisions of history being spouted now, some suggesting he was not a coveted manager when he literally turned down Chelsea previously.



TBH there are different things, thats the outcome, not he thought process or reaction at the time he was appointed. I am not happy at how things have worked out, but I am more sad than angry, I am angry more than another manager has been hung out to dry for massive short comings at the club.

Ok but I think I can be angry as a fan. As I say, my main concern when sacking Ange and appointing Frank was ‘are they trying rectify the wrong things?’ and I think it’s been proved out that they were.

The people making the decisions have more information than we do. They can speak to the players. I hoped, because I tend to trust people in power are making good decisions most of the time, that Frank wouldn’t play Brentford ball at Spurs. I assumed it would have been the first question they would ask in the interview process because it’s so obviously the biggest thing that his success would ride on. Either they didn’t ask, or they misunderstood Frank’s answer, or Frank lied.

That’s why I brought up Poch having a sense of things around the club. You need to be able to look beyond the data and go ‘does this make sense?’. Vinai had 30 candidates and 10 criteria and Frank was the outstanding candidate. Apparently one of those criteria wasn’t ’can Frank’s reactive football work for a club that is expected to have more possession in most matches, and will the players get behind this?’. And honestly right there I think is a large part of the issue. Equally ‘is hiring a guy so different from the previous guy the right thing here?’.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Ok but I think I can be angry as a fan. As I say, my main concern when sacking Ange and appointing Frank was ‘are they trying rectify the wrong things?’ and I think it’s been proved out that they were.

You can be as angry as you like chap, I am just saying I can't be having the knowing it was wrong from the start when you made a statement to the contrary

 

[afsoc4life]

At Napoli and still burning out in first rounds in European competitions, still talking brick about his employers.

His ego thinks he should be managing Real/Barca/City/Bayern, jobs he won't get.

Edit: To be clear, I still think he's a good football manager, but Spurs was a reality check for him, his volatility limits his appeal and the Napoli gig was a rebuild. His peak of Juve/Chelsea is gone

Conte has never been good in Europe. I cant decode why. He can win national competitions where he gets funded. But Europe - he just cant do it.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

You can be as angry as you like chap, I am just saying I can't be having the knowing it was wrong from the start when you made a statement to the contrary

1. I’m not saying ‘I knew it was wrong from the start’. With the best will in the world, I trusted the people in position to make the decisions that they had done their diligence.

2. But I did raise concerns and I think those concerns have been proven out, and I’m annoyed that the people in charge seemingly didn’t do their diligence properly like I hoped they would have, and not only that, for whatever data they were analysing, I think they were drawing the wrong conclusions from it. Did the squad need Frank? Would he adapt his football? Would his kind of motivation translate well after Ange?

It’s all well and good that Frank was highly rated and interviewed with Chelsea. But we need our club to be more analytical than that. Was he right specifically for us? Was he right to take over what came before? Is that what we actually needed? All the noises coming from Frank and the club, the injuries, the competing on all fronts, the needing to learn to defend, it all suggested they were drawing the wrong conclusions as to why we actually struggled.

I give Levy a ton of credit for hiring Poch, and hiring Ange. I think with Ange he correctly deduced that the club and the squad and the fans needed a leader, a unifier, someone with charisma who would bring an attacking style back, it was a great appointment on those terms. Frank by contrast was atrocious.

I’m sorry that my claiming some knowledge ahead of time offends you but that’s really not what I’m saying. As a fan with the limited information I had, I trusted the decision makers and wanted it to work. I also defended Frank a lot. But it’s entirely consistent and fair to say the concerns I raised when he were appointed have been borne out. And that’s why I’m frustrated, because I placed my trust in the decision makers and they just did a shoddy job.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I’m sorry that my claiming some knowledge ahead of time offends you.

Thats a weird take and a perfect line to draw under this conversation.

 

[GGyid]

Ok but I think I can be angry as a fan. As I say, my main concern when sacking Ange and appointing Frank was ‘are they trying rectify the wrong things?’ and I think it’s been proved out that they were.

The people making the decisions have more information than we do. They can speak to the players. I hoped, because I tend to trust people in power are making good decisions most of the time, that Frank wouldn’t play Brentford ball at Spurs. I assumed it would have been the first question they would ask in the interview process because it’s so obviously the biggest thing that his success would ride on. Either they didn’t ask, or they misunderstood Frank’s answer, or Frank lied.

That’s why I brought up Poch having a sense of things around the club. You need to be able to look beyond the data and go ‘does this make sense?’. Vinai had 30 candidates and 10 criteria and Frank was the outstanding candidate. Apparently one of those criteria wasn’t ’can Frank’s reactive football work for a club that is expected to have more possession in most matches, and will the players get behind this?’. And honestly right there I think is a large part of the issue. Equally ‘is hiring a guy so different from the previous guy the right thing here?’.

Just for the record, so where are you holding on Mr Tudor?