Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[parj]

Where is the established, proven PL quality in our squad? The debate rages on regarding the ability we have or don't have (and tbf is by the by now, what with results how they are) but I'm left thinking that for the most part it's all hypothetical - we have a GK that most people seem to want to replace, a back four that is as close to established PL quality as our squad allows and then a midfield full of potential that has not proven anything in this league bar two senior players most are hoping leave imminently and then an attack that is either potential (not even top tier potential either despite the fees) or players from abroad that have done nothing in this league as of yet so can go either way.

Depending on which way you're camped re the manager you will take either the positive outlook or the negative, but either way surely we can all see there's not a lot of proven quality there and that any calls one way or the other are not based on any sort of tangible track record of performance at this level?

I think PL experience is overrated. Players come from nowhere and do well here .. All they need is to be confident and have better technical ability. Not one foreign player came here PL ready - but many have been the greatest the league has seen.

 

[Kandi1977]

If Frank does go, which I think would be a ridiculous move, things will only get worse.

A good manager needs to be given time to whip these clams into shape.

I agree, to some extent, but I can not see what's the plan! what is our style of play now? There is absolutely no attacking plan, and we're still more open than swiss cheese at the back! I have no idea what our identity is now! We're not pressing, not attacking, and still wide open! I can't see an iota of progress or plan of how we are supposed to play! The players look deflated and defeated before the game has started!
I hate the idea of sacking managers, but honestly, this is as bad as I have ever seen us!
We need a change and we need it fast!

 

[parj]

Simons is a good player, but there is a reason he is being sent anywhere but to play for the top class team that plays him. We can all debate Frank all day but seeing someone who doesnt want it at all and its clear as day for me where his issues lie.

Good players have world class attitudes. His is far from it.

Turns up and puts in a proper performance against his home club to then drop 2/10s any other time

Seen that story at Spurs 100s of times over 3 decades

Ditto managers too. TF has not had a world class attitude. That's previous managers too. Conte and Jose throwing players under the bus instead of earning their money, Poch throwing his wobbly in his last season, Redknapp courting the England job etc. seen this story for decades too.

 

[billyiddo]

I think PL experience is overrated. Players come from nowhere and do well here .. All they need is to be confident and have better technical ability. Not one foreign player came here PL ready - but many have been the greatest the league has seen.

I'm not saying that we should only target PL experienced players or that players from abroad can't do well here, that's obviously not the case in the slightest - just that until we've seen what a player does here we can't say for certain how good of a player they are (wrt the here and now) and as true as it is that players have come from abroad and done well it is also true that good players from abroad have come here and not succeeded.

 

[parj]

I'm not saying that we should only target PL experienced players or that players from abroad can't do well here, that's obviously not the case in the slightest - just that until we've seen what a player does here we can't say for certain how good of a player they are (wrt the here and now) and as true as it is that players have come from abroad and done well it is also true that good players from abroad have come here and not succeeded.

And as PL players... Might look good in one team but not good in another. Some are only ever a big fish in a small pond. And a lot of English players are grossly overrated hence English clubs would rather risk paying less for a unproven talent knowing they might have a higher ceiling.

 

[Raziel]

Where is the established, proven PL quality in our squad? The debate rages on regarding the ability we have or don't have (and tbf is by the by now, what with results how they are) but I'm left thinking that for the most part it's all hypothetical - we have a GK that most people seem to want to replace, a back four that is as close to established PL quality as our squad allows and then a midfield full of potential that has not proven anything in this league bar two senior players most are hoping leave imminently and then an attack that is either potential (not even top tier potential either despite the fees) or players from abroad that have done nothing in this league as of yet so can go either way.

Depending on which way you're camped re the manager you will take either the positive outlook or the negative, but either way surely we can all see there's not a lot of proven quality there and that any calls one way or the other are not based on any sort of tangible track record of performance at this level?

VDV & Romero walk on to most teams in the PL
Porro is a very good FB/WB that again will be taken up by a big team if we decide to sell
Paulhinha, Bissouma, Gallagher, Kudus, Solanke, Bentancur, Deki, Maddison are all proven and have had recognized outstanding PL seasons before

So that's at least 11 proven at top 8 or better players

Gray, Bergvall, Odobert are our kids, time will tell but other teams would buy (noise than Pool is looking at Bergvall, as well as VDV)
Tel, RKM and Xavi are all in their first season in PL and adapting but they are all highly rated

And that's leaving players under questions, Davies (hard to say not proven), Vic (not popular or in form but really hard to say not proven), Spence (poor games recently and I think something is causing Frank to run Porro into the ground instead of playing him) or Sarr (again, think a player that would easily find a spot in a bottom half team).

In fact, I'd argue if you take the first year in PL or under 20s out of our team, who isn't PL level?

As a p.s. balance is different as a concern

 

[billyiddo]

And as PL players... Might look good in one team but not good in another. Some are only ever a big fish in a small pond. And a lot of English players are grossly overrated hence English clubs would rather risk paying less for a unproven talent knowing they might have a higher ceiling.

Yeah this is also true - more of a known quantity though. If we had more PL proven quality in the squad i would feel more comfortable saying that Frank has good quality at his disposal

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Ditto managers too. TF has not had a world class attitude. That's previous managers too. Conte and Jose throwing players under the bus instead of earning their money, Poch throwing his wobbly in his last season, Redknapp courting the England job etc. seen this story for decades too.

Managers take the fall, players down. Tools and standards to curry favour with fans "its not us its him" levels of noncense, people eat it up too often.

Kane and Son were great players not because just their technical ability but because their standards didnt drop regardless of who were in charge.

Players like Muani would be playing at PSG following his 90m move or whatever it was if he had even 50% of their dedication, as I say, thats why he is having to slum it round Europe now

 

[parj]

Yeah this is also true - more of a known quantity though. If we had more PL proven quality in the squad i would feel more comfortable saying that Frank has good quality at his disposal

If we were signing unknowns like Stambouli, Fazio, Foyth, Janssen, Etc I would agree, but Frank has received players with very good reputations to proven performers. I'm more than comfortable with what he has got.

However, I would point out that our player of the season can barely get a look in now.

Romero, VDV, Kulu, Udogie, and Bentancur were not PL proven - Kulu and Bentancur were struggling to get full matches at Juve. Romero was loaned out to Atalanta. These are players you can argue prove that PL experience doesnt mean that much.

Richy, Solanke, Kudus, Maddison are PL proven but have never been consistent, or showing they are better than the non-PL proven players.

I just want players that will fight for the club, that want to play football, and that get played in their best position.

 

[parj]

Managers take the fall, players down. Tools and standards to curry favour with fans "its not us its him" levels of noncense, people eat it up too often.

Kane and Son were great players not because just their technical ability but because their standards didnt drop regardless of who were in charge.

Players like Muani would be playing at PSG following his 90m move or whatever it was if her had even 50% of their dedication, as I say, thats why he is having to slum it round Europe now

Managers also get a huge payout when they are sacked. They get to criticise the club, but when a player does it, gets disciplined. They get to make decisions and players have to just accept it even if it's absolutely lunacy.

They get the blame if the club keeps appointing managers that don't have systems that suit the squad - they are clearly not good enough.

It goes both ways. But it's the club that needs to sign club players and appoint club managers that at least play a style that meets the club philosophy. We can't keep rebuilding squads... It starts but never completes

 

[billyiddo]

VDV & Romero walk on to most teams in the PL
Porro is a very good FB/WB that again will be taken up by a big team if we decide to sell
Paulhinha, Bissouma, Gallagher, Kudus, Solanke, Bentancur, Deki, Maddison are all proven and have had recognized outstanding PL seasons before

So that's at least 11 proven at top 8 or better players

Gray, Bergvall, Odobert are our kids, time will tell but other teams would buy (noise than Pool is looking at Bergvall, as well as VDV)
Tel, RKM and Xavi are all in their first season in PL and adapting but they are all highly rated

And that's leaving players under questions, Davies (hard to say not proven), Vic (not popular or in form but really hard to say not proven), Spence (poor games recently and I think something is causing Frank to run Porro into the ground instead of playing him) or Sarr (again, think a player that would easily find a spot in a bottom half team).

In fact, I'd argue if you take the first year in PL or under 20s out of our team, who isn't PL level?

As a p.s. balance is different as a concern

Maddison, Deki & Solanke have been absent all season - Gallagher has just signed.

Kudus - not proven top 8 quality
Paulinha - not proven top 8 quality
Bissouma & Bentancur - most people want to move on as they have not really been good enough over several seasons for us

The back four as I said are probably our best examples of the required quality.

So as to your point regarding non new signings and u20s - we have a back four of the required quality, 4 players who have not been available all season and then a few question marks.

 

[Mikey10]

Maddison, Deki & Solanke have been absent all season - Gallagher has just signed.

Kudus - not proven top 8 quality
Paulinha - not proven top 8 quality
Bissouma & Bentancur - most people want to move on as they have not really been good enough over several seasons for us

The back four as I said are probably our best examples of the required quality.

So as to your point regarding non new signings and u20s - we have a back four of the required quality, 4 players who have not been available all season and then a few question marks.

I’d agree with the above but disagree on Porro. Seems like a great bloke, might be a good right winger, but is nowhere near being a PL quality defender. It was embarrassing watching him attempting to defend at times today.

 

[billyiddo]

I’d agree with the above but disagree on Porro. Seems like a great bloke, might be a good right winger, but is nowhere near being a PL quality defender. It was embarrassing watching him attempting to defend at times today.

Porro has been part of a side that has finished 4th 8th 5th 17th (i think?) so it's fair to have him down as a top 8 level player imv

 

[Raziel]

Maddison, Deki & Solanke have been absent all season - Gallagher has just signed.

Kudus - not proven top 8 quality
Paulinha - not proven top 8 quality
Bissouma & Bentancur - most people want to move on as they have not really been good enough over several seasons for us

The back four as I said are probably our best examples of the required quality.

So as to your point regarding non new signings and u20s - we have a back four of the required quality, 4 players who have not been available all season and then a few question marks.

Disagree, Paulhinha and Kudus have top level stats, numbers behind their game is top level across most European leagues

People wanting to move a player on doesn't mean they aren't proven top level

This all comes back to we can argue top 8, or 10 or bottom half but it isn't a 14th side that is unable to beat Wolves and West Ham at home. It is also impossible to agree that these players wouldn't be able to follow some kind of system instructions, e.g. obviously the instructions for Porro is fudging whack into box regardless of if anyone is there.

 

[demotw]

It’s just about trying different things, the say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results, so try Scarlet up front, try a back 3 with Romero in the “Dier” role, try Porro at RW with Spence behind. I would be happier if we lost while at least trying to work out our best formation/tactics but the last 7/8 games have been rinse and repeat with no real differences.

I would say on the flip side though that maybe over the last 3-4 games we should have just as easily won with how we played overall but for better quality in the attacking third and a bit less individual stupidity but only so many times I can pray for a corner

 

[LutonSpurs]

We have a distinct lack of strategy. We built a squad for Ange ball and then got Frank.

And I don't think it's close to binary between squad and manager. It's both right now.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Managers also get a huge payout when they are sacked. They get to criticise the club, but when a player does it, gets disciplined. They get to make decisions and players have to just accept it even if it's absolutely lunacy.

They get the blame if the club keeps appointing managers that don't have systems that suit the squad - they are clearly not good enough.

It goes both ways. But it's the club that needs to sign club players and appoint club managers that at least play a style that meets the club philosophy. We can't keep rebuilding squads... It starts but never completes

The point being made was about Mauni and his own responsibility to his performances and standards. I maintain my stance on it.

Not everything thats happening here is on Frank despite alot of it being on him.

Some players are clearly taking no responsibility and defaulting to taking the cowards way out.

Either Muani is unlucky with the managers he has had or his nomadic life now might, just might be on him

 

[tommysvr]

As always, it's not letting someone go that is the issue. It's whom you replace them with.

When we sack Frank, if the next guy struggles as much, sacking Frank won't necessarily be the wrong decision but who comes in to replace him might be (in all likelyhood, will be).

Frank should never have been appointed in the first place. Just an absolutely dreadful decision.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

So, folks, who do we fancy for the rest of the season?

Out of the likely candidates, it’s hard to decide:

Stellini: Knows the club, probably didn’t get enough time in his previous stint, will have learned a lot from his time working with Conte, and is Italian, so he obviously must be great.

Mason: Okay, he’s been sacked by West Brom for not being good enough, but he knows the club, will have learned a lot from working with Conte, and he’s English, and they won the World Cup in 1966 - so what’s not to like?!

Sherwood: Alright, he’s been out of the game for a while, but he knows the club, occasionally talks in sentences on Sky Sports, apparently once met Conte in the tunnel at the new stadium, and he’s English (remember 1966, people!) - and he managed Ryan Mason for a short period!

Ange: It seems an unlikely return, but he did manage us to a cup win (while simultaneously overseeing a secret strategy to lose all of our league games -not even Pep worked it out, so bonus points for that!), he took over from Conte, he’s Australian (they are famous for boomerangs and they almost always make successful returns), and he’ll have gained a lot more experience from his five week stint at Forest.

Can we start a poll?

It's a decision we have to be careful with.

Is our league position solid enough to consider an interim, if we have someone in mind thats our first choice but can only come in the summer.
Or do we appoint, maybe not our first choice, now, and forego that manager?

 

[SteveAWOL]

So we've now lost 5 points at home to two teams in the relegation zone, and the one point we rescue was a last gasp equaliser against the worst team in the PL.

To be fair to Frank, we lost home games to Ipswich Town plus Leicester City last season and our form at White Hart Three Point Lane has been consistently abysmal in the 15 months since that Ipswich humiliation.

Played: 25 Won: 4 Drawn: 6 Lost: 15 For: 33 Against: 45

Ipswich 1-2
Fulham 1-1
Chavski 3-4
Liverpool 3-6
Wolves 2-2
Saudi Sportswashing Machine 1-2
Leicester 1-2
ManUre 1-0
Emirates Marketing Project 0-1
Bournemouth 2-2
Southampton 3-1
Forest 1-2
Palace 0-2
Brighton 1-4
Burnley 3-0
Bournemouth 0-1
Wolves 1-1
Villa 1-2
Chavski 0-1
Manure 2-2
Fulham 1-2
Brentford 2-0
Liverpool 1-2
Sunderland 1-1
Wet Spam 1-2