glory-glory.co.uk

Lost in Space:

L.A. Yiddo:

Christ that looks awful, how on Earth is that listed by English Heritage?  It should be blown up!!!

Have you been to Sheffield lately. In the context of the rest of this nuclear waste-land that's a des-res. You should visit Parsons Cross. 

Should they be renaming it Parsons Nose?

i can see their point.  these are attractive buidlings and its would be a shame to knock em down even if they are vacant.

Hmm...

ledley_the_king:

i can see their point.  these are attractive buidlings and its would be a shame to knock em down even if they are vacant.

One thing London isn't short of is red brick buildings. Just take a look on Google Street View. This is a once off development that is going to go a great way to ensuring that the rest of Tottenham doesn't need to be levelled and redeveloped.

WookieD:

ledley_the_king:

i can see their point.  these are attractive buidlings and its would be a shame to knock em down even if they are vacant.

One thing London isn't short of is red brick buildings. Just take a look on Google Street View. This is a once off development that is going to go a great way to ensuring that the rest of Tottenham doesn't need to be levelled and redeveloped.

I think what we are forgetting is that for a building to be listed it has to be hand picked so to speak (there are certain buildings that are automatically listed i.e those over a certain age or style) so they obviously do mean something. We should be trying to preserve these buildings instead of looking for the quick fix. Wookie, im not sure where the buildings are in relation to the masterplan but if they are not in the way of anything surely they can be used for something, if for nothing more than storage, or fast food take away... anything rather than just the attitude of "f@ck it, there are others like it" its that sort of attitude that planners hate.

The building in question will of better quality than anything that will replace it. Its also a waste of resources and also adds to global warming and carbon footprint  but hey... thats the world we live in. Lets just have a f@ck it attitude like we do for most ecological and sustainable issues, after all, we dont live there so it doesnt matter to us.  

Eriktheviking:

WookieD:

ledley_the_king:

i can see their point.  these are attractive buidlings and its would be a shame to knock em down even if they are vacant.

One thing London isn't short of is red brick buildings. Just take a look on Google Street View. This is a once off development that is going to go a great way to ensuring that the rest of Tottenham doesn't need to be levelled and redeveloped.

I think what we are forgetting is that for a building to be listed it has to be hand picked so to speak (there are certain buildings that are automatically listed i.e those over a certain age or style) so they obviously do mean something. We should be trying to preserve these buildings instead of looking for the quick fix. Wookie, im not sure where the buildings are in relation to the masterplan but if they are not in the way of anything surely they can be used for something, if for nothing more than storage, or fast food take away... anything rather than just the attitude of "f@ck it, there are others like it" its that sort of attitude that planners hate.

The building in question will of better quality than anything that will replace it. Its also a waste of resources and also adds to global warming and carbon footprint  but hey... thats the world we live in. Lets just have a f@ck it attitude like we do for most ecological and sustainable issues, after all, we dont live there so it doesnt matter to us.  

It's going to be replaced by the "Green Area" in front of the stadium that has been earmarked as a community space for local markets, music/theatre events, a general area to sit around and any number of other local events that the council/schools/local groups might want to use it for... I think that sort of opportunity in the area is more useful than a historic looking McDonalds.

Here's an example of just one of the buildings they are mentioning:

Good hey.

The buldings' inclusion in the Northumberland Development Project, pretty much ruins the entire Northumberland Development Project and is short sighted as all it will do is harm the area.

Eriktheviking:

L.A. Yiddo:

Gutter Boy:

Try living in Sheffield.  Our giant monument to Eastern Bloc architecture from the 1950s is listed by blimming English Heritage so can't be demolished:

 

Christ that looks awful, how on Earth is that listed by English Heritage?  It should be blown up!!!

 

THat is Park Hill estate in Sheffield and is a seminal piece of English Architecture. The reasons for listing a building are not purely on looks and being aesthetically pleasing but what the building offers out of a historical and architectural interest. Built after the war in about 1947 it was a sign of the times, much of Britain was in squalor, there was still rationing we had very little in the way of metal to build with and most importantly, there was a new thinking amongst planners and architects that the design of a building/housing could better peoples lives. The Park Hill estate was somewhat copied or inspired from one of the greatest urban designers/planners/architects that ever lived, Le Cobusier, if you look at his work it is very similar in style and appearance with big concrete slabs used around a steel structure - at the time a revolution. Today he is still regarded so amongst architects but he was responsible for the big 70's concrete slabs you see in places like Birmingham, Hull, Newcastle etc - the problems was it was shite architects who mirrored his ideas, but badly - more so in this country rather than in Europe. 

Park Hill was a social experiment of creating a neighborhood or community from scratch using a cheap material (concrete) and quickly. In all honesty, it worked and was one of the most desirable places to live (you only have to see pictures of the bombed inner city slums to understand why) but in the 70's became neglected and the downward spiral started.   Today, we see the planners still using the idea of creating communities along the lines of Park Hill so it does mean something. It was an absolute sign of the times both in the normative way of thinking at the time and in design - and for that, it cant be knocked. 

bit like the trellick Tower in Kensal, looks horrible and there used to be some horror stories but it's since been rejuvenated and now some flats go for £300k+

NW5pur:

bit like the trellick Tower in Kensal, looks horrible and there used to be some horror stories but it's since been rejuvenated and now some flats go for £300k+

Wow, I'd love to get my hands on that plant room at the top... What a pad you could make that into!

Back by popular demand.....

Well Ok one person requested it back 

Once again, thanks Unkown.

The decision for planning permission for this stadium is due this month I believe, an absolutely huge month for the club, on and off the pitch.

ginola99:

Once again, thanks Unkown.

The decision for planning permission for this stadium is due this month I believe, an absolutely huge month for the club, on and off the pitch.

Great stuff, more info for the first page of the thread.

Unknown:

ginola99:

Once again, thanks Unkown.

The decision for planning permission for this stadium is due this month I believe, an absolutely huge month for the club, on and off the pitch.

Great stuff, more info for the first page of the thread.

Very good info as well.

We've submitted planning application to relocate Archway Steel Works, who are on the proposed site for the stadium...

http://www.planningservices.haringey.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=208505

ginola99:

Once again, thanks Unkown.

The decision for planning permission for this stadium is due this month I believe, an absolutely huge month for the club, on and off the pitch.

Next earliest decision date is March 8th, failing that it's April 12th.

the contractor im working for has put a price in for a part of the works.

hope that comes off

they have knocked down loads of buildings in northumberland park so things must be going ahead.

Big car parks

 Sorry cannot get the link thingy to work on my Mac:

 http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/football/article-23801816-tottenham-need-to-think-again-over-new-stadium.do

Tottenham need to think again over new stadium

Rowan Moore
03.02.10

Tottenham Hotspur are the 14th richest football club in the world, a £113 million-a-year business, whose most valuable players each cost the same as a Francis Baconpainting, or a middle-sized cultural centre, or a block or two of affordable housing, or a few schools.

Yet its ground stands in the most deprived ward in London.

Tottenham High Road is a thoroughfare that goes back to Roman times, somewhat battered now but still lined with ornate fragments of Victoriana and handsome Georgian houses from the days when this was a prosperous rural satellite of London.

Modern football stadia, by contrast, are vast relentless machines for processing tens of thousands of people, objects at an utterly different scale from an ordinary high street.

So when Tottenham Hotspur propose a new 58,000-seat stadium, rising to 42 metres high, as well as 450 flats, a hotel and a supermarket to help pay for it, worlds collide.

Power meets poverty, and the silvery disc of the arena descends like a UFO, whooshing pubs and shops and the odd listed building into oblivion. It is as pure a symbol of the relative might of club and borough as you could wish for.

Except Spurs are not having it all their own way. The Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment (CABE) has pronounced itself “disappointed” with the project and “does not support it”.

It finds it “incoherent” and “awkward”. English Heritage, while still finalising its position, says that the plan threatens “a serious and significant level of harm to the historic environment”.

Objections like these can prompt a public planning inquiry, or derail the whole project, whose cost will be £400 million. And, as things stand, it's hard to disagree with CABE.

It's not that the stadium shouldn't be there. Spurs considered other options from Milton Keynes to Wembley to taking on the Olympic site and opted to stay where they are now, relocating just to the north of their current ground.

It wouldn't do Haringey any good if this local icon, major employer and earner of revenue went somewhere else. Spurs, like other self-respecting modern football clubs, also make much of their outreach to the local community.

The new development would remove the current stadium, no thing of beauty, and would brighten up its dingy surroundings.

It would greatly enhance the space outside a neighbouring school that currently resembles the death zone along the Berlin Wall.

A supermarket, hotel, conference centre, and housing — affordable and otherwise — are all good things for Tottenham.

The club have hired the famous American landscape architect Martha Schwartz to create a “vibrant” and “exceptional” public square and an ice rink is promised in winter.

The ground itself, designed by the stadium specialist KSS, aims to create a rare intimacy between fans and players, even as it increases the current capacity of 35,000 by two-thirds.

At one end, a vast bank of spectators, uninterrupted by corporate boxes, is proposed, with the intention of creating an array of passionate humanity unlike any other English football ground.

It is meant to be the opposite of the chilly cathedral, the Emirates Stadium, that Arsenal have built for themselves.

Externally, the proposed stadium is a silvery, swooping thing, none too subtle and a bit blingy.

There are awkward crunches where the right-angled geometry of its floors and columns meets the curving arch shapes the architects have applied to the exterior.

It is not, in other words, a sophisticated work of architecture, although it is sleeker than most British football grounds and has a certain oomph to it.

But the real issue is how all these elements add up. In the present plans the stadium looks as though it were designed to sit in an open plain, with little recognition of the bits of street and town around it.

At one end the supermarket is a standard blind box; at the other the hotel and housing, designed by Make Architecture, are noisy, jagged objects with juddering rhythms, rising up to 20 storeys above three-storey surroundings. Taken together, it makes for an inchoate whole.

What's needed is architecture that can walk and chew gum at the same time. The stadium should be splendid — and there's no point trying to disguise the fact that it's enormous — but it should also respond to the fact that it's shaping a public place in everyday use on the 340 days a year when there's not a match on.

The hotel and housing present an opportunity to create a transition between the scale of the existing streets and that of the stadium, but instead aim to be expressive icons in their own right.

It's not an easy task but it's possible, and achieving difficult things should be the reason why architects are paid their fees. More than that, it's dramatic encounters like this that make architecture interesting — think, for example, of the way medieval cathedrals rise from narrow streets. Done well, this slab of Tottenham could become an astonishing part of London.

I write this as a supporter of Tottenham Hotspur. Having been born in Hastings to a largely football-hating family, I can't claim to be a dyed-in-the-wool fan, but I was drawn to the club by its tradition of finding the most stylish players.

Now, going to matches with my daughter, we have a well-worn joke as the blue struts of the existing stadium come into view. “That's the most beautiful building in London,” we say. It isn't, of course.

The point is that, once inside, the look of a stadium becomes almost irrelevant compared with what's happening on the pitch.

Most football fans would watch their team in stadia built out of plastic drain sections and reused scrap metal, which is what, indeed, many of them look like.

But, given the chance to create a wholly new stadium development, why wouldn't you want it to be as classy and skilful as the best players?

good article that, never really took into account how the stadium would 'fit in' to the local area.

Billyiddo:

good article that, never really took into account how the stadium would 'fit in' to the local area.

lol, chicken king stadium it is then.

On skyscrappercity I've read that the people that say it doesn't look or fit in are just giving opinion and don't have any real power to say whether it gets built or not.

Remember the Olympiic Park has been built in a not too dis-simalar area.

Billyiddo:

good article that, never really took into account how the stadium would 'fit in' to the local area.

I wouldn't mind so much about these pompous clowns frothing at the mouth were Tottenham quite the gentrified bastion of architectural genius, which these fools would seemingly have you believe.  But it's not - it's a fucking dump which has been neglected for faaaar too long now.  You go and ask the people who live around there what they would rather prefer: a more modern, vibrant, clean Tottenham - or, the same old dirty, old-fashioned, squalor which - not by choice mind - they are used to.  It's a no-brainer.

These people need to remove their head from their arses.  They don't live in Tottenham; no, they wouldn't fucking dream of lowering themselves to being within even 100 miles of such poverty and crime: oh no, that'd faaaar too dangerous - and yet, they feel the need to voice objections to the area being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century?  Pisses me off how areas which are in desperate - and I mean REALLY desperate - need of investment and regeneration are held back by tossers like this who only wish to use the project as a means to verbally jack-off about architecture.  Prattling on about lines and mood?  For fúck sake, as opposed to what: the beautiful graffiti-ridden street scene, delightfully accentuated by the broken bus shelter and the warmth which only the smell of fresh urine can bring?  Fucking mugs.

We do not live in the Victorian era anymore.  We - thankfully - now live in an era where standards are far, far higher and people now come to expect it.  Areas such as Lower Tottenham have been crying out for this sort of regeneration and rejuvenation for fucking years, and it's what the people need so that perhaps they will take more pride in their environment, and bring some new money into the area.  Tottenham has been held back for far too long now, and this is the chance - the main catalyst - it needs to get going again.  These people need to open their minds up to new, modern forms of architecture - and stop with their boring, predictable haughty view against anything which is remotely shiny.  Of course, they're too thick to realise that - in 100 years time - this will be the architecture which generations ahead of us will be admiring and applauding just as much as anything Georgian or Victorian.

Sheikh_Ma_Nuggets:

Billyiddo:

good article that, never really took into account how the stadium would 'fit in' to the local area.

It doesn't 'fit in' because that area of Tottenham is an utter shit hole.

I wouldn't mind so much about these pompous clowns frothing at the mouth were Tottenham quite the gentrified bastion of architectural genius, which these fools would seemingly have you believe.  But it's not - it's a fucking dump which has been neglected for faaaar too long now.  You go and ask the people who live around there what they would rather prefer: a more modern, vibrant, clean Tottenham - or, the same old dirty, old-fashioned, squalor which - not by choice mind - they are used to.  It's a no-brainer.

These people need to remove their head from their arses.  They don't live in Tottenham; no, they wouldn't fucking dream of lowering themselves to being within even 100 miles of such poverty and crime: oh no, that'd faaaar too dangerous - and yet, they feel the need to voice objections to the area being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century?  Pisses me off how areas which are in desperate - and I mean REALLY desperate - need of investment and regeneration are held back by tossers like this who only wish to use the project as a means to verbally jack-off about architecture.  Prattling on about lines and mood?  For fúck sake, as opposed to what: the beautiful graffiti-ridden street scene, delightfully accentuated by the broken bus shelter and the warmth which only the smell of fresh urine can bring?  Fucking mugs.

We do not live in the Victorian era anymore.  We - thankfully - now live in an era where standards are far, far higher and people now come to expect it.  Areas such as Lower Tottenham have been crying out for this sort of regeneration and rejuvenation for fucking years, and it's what the people need so that perhaps they will take more pride in their environment, and bring some new money into the area.  Tottenham has been held back for far too long now, and this is the chance - the main catalyst - it needs to get going again.  These people need to open their minds up to new, modern forms of architecture - and stop with their boring, predictable haughty view against anything which is remotely shiny.  Of course, they're too thick to realise that - in 100 years time - this will be the architecture which generations ahead of us will be admiring and applauding just as much as anything Georgian or Victorian.

By far the best post I have seen on this thread and on this site for a while. It perfectly sums up my feelings about the bourgeoisie elitist wannabe inverlid children who go round telling people how they should live their lives, how they HAVE to voice their opinions and even sometimes have the sheer cheek to get upset when someone disagrees with them. The last line is a fact as far as I am concerned, I hate the victorian societies around, admittedly they are needed, many fine buildings were knocked down to make way for some shockingly awful buildings back in the 1960s but their near enough "oh modern stuff is crap" approach to anything new just pisses me off and is, when thinking about it, hypocrisy in the extreme.  

Sheikh Ma Nuggets, absolutely outstanding post sir.

Sheikh_Ma_Nuggets:

Billyiddo:

good article that, never really took into account how the stadium would 'fit in' to the local area.

It doesn't 'fit in' because that area of Tottenham is an utter shit hole.

I wouldn't mind so much about these pompous clowns frothing at the mouth were Tottenham quite the gentrified bastion of architectural genius, which these fools would seemingly have you believe.  But it's not - it's a fucking dump which has been neglected for faaaar too long now.  You go and ask the people who live around there what they would rather prefer: a more modern, vibrant, clean Tottenham - or, the same old dirty, old-fashioned, squalor which - not by choice mind - they are used to.  It's a no-brainer.

These people need to remove their head from their arses.  They don't live in Tottenham; no, they wouldn't fucking dream of lowering themselves to being within even 100 miles of such poverty and crime: oh no, that'd faaaar too dangerous - and yet, they feel the need to voice objections to the area being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century?  Pisses me off how areas which are in desperate - and I mean REALLY desperate - need of investment and regeneration are held back by tossers like this who only wish to use the project as a means to verbally jack-off about architecture.  Prattling on about lines and mood?  For fúck sake, as opposed to what: the beautiful graffiti-ridden street scene, delightfully accentuated by the broken bus shelter and the warmth which only the smell of fresh urine can bring?  Fucking mugs.

We do not live in the Victorian era anymore.  We - thankfully - now live in an era where standards are far, far higher and people now come to expect it.  Areas such as Lower Tottenham have been crying out for this sort of regeneration and rejuvenation for fucking years, and it's what the people need so that perhaps they will take more pride in their environment, and bring some new money into the area.  Tottenham has been held back for far too long now, and this is the chance - the main catalyst - it needs to get going again.  These people need to open their minds up to new, modern forms of architecture - and stop with their boring, predictable haughty view against anything which is remotely shiny.  Of course, they're too thick to realise that - in 100 years time - this will be the architecture which generations ahead of us will be admiring and applauding just as much as anything Georgian or Victorian.

I don't entirely disagree.......if you're talking about the English Heritage types who want to preserve all the Victorian and Edwardian buildings in the area - regardless that the area, as things stand, is a dump.

But the author of that article - Rowan Moore - and CABE aren't saying that the Northumberland Development Project must preserve all the current buildings or that all the new buildings must be built in a specific style. Nor are they saying that the project shouldn't go ahead at all.

They are only saying that the current plans could be better. They're saying that the design of the housing and the supermarket, in particular, is mediocre and unsympathetic and won't, therefore, efficiently deliver all the potential benefits of development that the architects are promising. In essence, they very much approve of the idea of the development. They just want the architects - MAKE more so than KSS - to come up with new, better designs for the buildings themselves and for the overall masterplan.

Whether or not you agree with their opinion about the quality of the designs (and I do, to a degree), I don't think they can be accused of being critical of this development merely for the sake being against development in principle.

Bloody hell. Feel better now you two? How about YOU getting off your high horses for a moment and taking time to reflect on what they're saying. No one is saying we shouldn't have a new stadium in Tottenham, not even that we shouldn't have the full development works.

From what I have just read, all they are saying is wait a minute, why cannot we do this a little better and achieve exactly the same things you two are arguing for, and whilst we're at it raise the quality of the neighbourhood that little bit more too. Cannot see any harm in that, only potential benefit to both the project and the local community. Surely this is such a major development it doesn't hurt to listen to a few critical voices? No way am I qualified myself to give any sort of opinion as to whether they are right or wrong but at least let's consider a bit more carefully what they have to say and whether they might just have a point.

I have hated the look of the hotel and housing from day 1, infact it looks ghastly and somewhat like something from the costa del sol

Maybe if they made the outside more feminine and less concrete maisonette it might look better, saying that the only thing I have liked recently is the gherkin.

I don't also like the square patterns everywhere, from the windows above the club shop to the walk areas